Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[Zerathor]

So the adds phase in e7s, and the first two phases of TEA. If that's what you consider 'large', then I can see why your views on balance are so distorted.

Ah, my apologies then. If it isn't adds that let smn inch ahead or stay near even, I guess it's other factors that makes them do more damage than blm while simultaneously keeping a raise in their kit. Doesn't seem like this "95%" nonsense you've said earlier. Care to explain that? Maybe it could be blatant turning a blind eye to information regarding your Mary Sue favorite job that makes your views on balance so distorted. Lose the raise, and I call this spread fair.

Raise topic again?
Raise is fine on Summoner. Yes, Summoner is a tad overtuned because it still does better than the selfish DPS Black Mage and Samurai, but at least the gap isn't so high. Removing Raise from Summoner won't change the numbers it makes because it's not even optimal for Summoner to use it, not even for Red Mage. It's utility that isn't optimized all the time. Sure, it can salvage fights and it suddenly becomes an amazing skill, typically on lower difficulty ones, but again barely optimized after the learning phase. Raise isn't comparable to ogcd/passive support utilities that Bard or Dancer have, and it's always going to be detrimental to DPS since it's a GCD skill. This is why "Raise tax" is also a stupid concept, that and death already punishes the raised person with weaker stats.
I wouldn't mind if they adjusted Devotion instead. It doesn't feel great to use for me to care about it too much.

Anyway it shouldn't surprise people that Summoner has a lot of players lately. It's the flavor of the season job for being top DPS and getting a flattering redesign in 5.1. You see the same thing with healers and tanks, right now being White Mage and Paladin respectively who were notoriously called the worst in previous expansions, but have grown to be the best. People will always flock to whatever is popular, that is just general human nature.

Again, people are on a hyperbole with how overtuned Summoner is honestly. The gap isn't that much, but yes it does need to be dealt with. The balance between the DPS classes right now are pretty good aside from whatever happened to Physical Ranged.

Raise shouldn't be free to own. Its not a difficult concept. Of course you don't want to use it, but its a safety net in a kit that is exclusive to healers and two dps jobs. Removing it wont change smn numbers, and thats exactly what I want, because where they are is perfectly fine, if they didn't have access to raise.
I'd be fine just letting it be the 'flavor of the season' if it hadn't already been the flavor of the last entire expansion, that had a mild hiccup in the first patch of shadowbringers that was fixed before TEA came out. The trend seems to always be make smn the flavor of the game, and I don't care for that. You are correct though, the balance gap between jobs (aside phys range) is pretty good atm. With that one tweak to smn, I'd say it'd be golden.

[Myon88]

A one-trick pony accusing me of favoritism is a bad joke, perhaps you didn't hear me the first time. You went to all that trouble only to crop out the identifying information from those charts, why is that? No, don't tell me, I know exactly why - but do it again this time sorting by 99th.

I'm not sure if you realize we're 5 weeks into a tier where groups don't finish gearing till week 8. Speedrunning groups are still spinning up, strats are being refined, to say nothing of the fact that gear is disproportionately distributed, with the jobs weakest in prog the last to be geared up. I haven't even started gearing my blm. If you still played the game, you would realize this, and this is why once again you lack context and perspective. It is precisely impatient and short-sighted outlooks like this that are responsible for the constant whiplash state of balancing we have seen.

[Zerathor]

A one-trick pony accusing me of favoritism is a bad joke, perhaps you didn't hear me the first time. You went to all that trouble only to crop out the identifying information from those charts, why is that? No, don't tell me, I know exactly why - but do it again this time sorting by 99th.

I'm not sure if you realize we're 5 weeks into a tier where groups don't finish gearing till week 8. Speedrunning groups are still spinning up, strats are being refined, to say nothing of the fact that gear is disproportionately distributed, with the jobs weakest in prog the last to be geared up. I haven't even started gearing my blm. If you still played the game, you would realize this, and this is why once again you lack context and perspective. It is precisely impatient and short-sighted outlooks like this that are responsible for the constant whiplash state of balancing we have seen.

Lol, your favoritism isn't much of a secret. It's cropped because its 4 fights and I didn't want it to be a very large image, its more appealing to the eyes to just see it in the full range of each percentile (not to mention anyone concerned with balance knows where to see the full charts), but maybe you don't understand how that works.

But what is your point in this? Did YOU look at sorting by 99th? The result is the same, blm wins in ramuh by a bit, black mage edges smn by THREE DPS on ifrit and gruda, and then smn wins the last 2 fights by a small margin. OK? thanks for proving my point more I guess that smn is not 95% of a black mage and they're borderline equal but one has a raise?

I mean sure, group's aren't done gearing up yet, but are you going to straight face BS that if a group is running double caster (or even one of the two) that they wouldn't give a weapon to the 2 top dps jobs on week 2? The black mages and the smn's are getting the gear, you'll see other jobs start mixing up.

Of course you wouldn't be gearing up your OFF JOB. I know you don't get numbers, but at least you're not selfish to your group by stealing gear for your side job that you only play when its better than smn. But guess what? the people that play it probably are gearing it up. Especially the ones getting 99's.

I'll be nice and even give you your image, I want to see the next excuse. Make it more entertaining next time please. Should we start doing every grouping down to 90th? I'll give you a spoiler that it only starts going further away from your case, but we'll do it if you ask. Use your advanced mind reading powers to read my motives, while I try out mine: You just want smn to stay the strongest job in the game, and will disregard any common sense arguments that say otherwise.

[Renkei]

Careful with that talk, you're a [I]dragoon.

Ya i would know because I've been playing longer then you, and i cleared Second Coil before the Dragoon rework, The Wheeling / Fang Positional wasn't like that originally at the play test and was changed to that when the game when live in Heavens-ward for some unknown reason. BOTD hardly has any reward or managing built into it anymore, you sound like you are living in a glass house not me don't project yourself onto me its petty.

RDM offers buffs only to melee and themselves with their RDPS, It supplements only melee compositions, i say that clearly which you seem to distort, ya they took summoner and over-buffed the hell out of them.


I can't say the same for you because i play what i like, you can have fun following trends and being a follower your whole life if you like, You are saying that while you are playing the broken classes i am more concerned over balance and not the flavor of the patch , that doesn't make your argument stronger that you use circular logic to prove your own point.

The way you are acting is totally spoiled by the current balance of the game and this is exactly the issue, if you are able to play 3 of the strongest jobs currently in meta without switching left side pieces is incredibly broken, if you look at historical evidence Casters have always been a strong choice all the time is a good time to play them but i choose to play my favorite class instead which you seemed to have abandoned in favor of Summoner.

Lol, your favoritism isn't much of a secret

Lol IKR, He even tried asserting classism on me because i Main DRAGOON LOL

Ikr he got the balance change he complained about and now he's stomping around the forums thinking like he owns to place and thinks hes superior because SE went out of the way to adjust summoner, sorry that's just an objective fact so I'll say it.

Myon when you gear BLM all you have to do is put on a Staff and switch some pieces around, i have to acquire a whole left side set.

I don't believe in putting down other users just because of their choice of in game profession, Hell even outside of the game that is a petty thing to do.

[Myon88]

_

There, aren't things much easier when you aren't fudging your data? If I were a blm main arguing in bad faith, I'd crop it so people don't see me sorting by 'all percentiles', or 90 or whatever suits my agenda the most. Let the bumbling players further down the bell curve bolster my argument, and count on people not bothering to double check. Don't be so coy, I know you're capable for that much at least.

Now look very closely at Ramuh, because like voidwalker last tier is it the closest to being a straight up target dummy, and thus the truest indicator of the raw potential of each job. Blm has a healthy 2.5% lead over smn, and rdm trails smn by 4.5%. You can expect blm to pull ahead even more as people push toward its skill ceiling, and likewise rdm can expect to see gains because even you know that rdms aren't getting fed right now, see: "The black mages and the smn's are getting the gear".

If you recall I said last tier that if they got caster balance to within a 5% margin I would be satisfied, and I don't know about you but its looking on track to me. I expect to see the same trend manifest for shiva due to p3 being a straightforward tank-and-spank, and I'm pretty surprised blm is beating smn on 6s already, considering how movement heavy that fight is. The last time I checked that phase, it was summoner at #1, but that's blm for you I guess.

The only fight where smn currently has a clear lead is 7s, which is the same fight you complained about smn's being able to abuse multidotting on. Remember how you were so insistent on multidotting being a 'niche' on certain fights? I hope you're starting to put two and two together by now.

You must also remember that smn is by far the most killtime dependent caster due to the discrete nature of demi summons. This means that even if a summoner is geared now, their performance will change as the rest of the group gears up and starts killing the boss quicker. You will notice this most on 6s and 7s, and while it could go either way, these fights lock summoner into rushed 55s rotations due to the nature of their phasing, and any shorter killtimes will cut into those gains as you work 5s toward an extra demi every minute. You would know this, if you stepped out of your blm bubble.

See, nuance and context, these are the things you lack due to your perspective. No, blm is not my 'off job' any more than smn is my main. I play all three casters as you will see clearly if you look me up, and frankly if my Eden1 blm showing is indicative of an 'off job' performance, that doesn't reflect well on any of you.

I don't believe in putting down other users just because of their choice of in game profession, Hell even outside of the game that is a petty thing to do.

That rings very hollow coming from someone that was just taking potshots at the 'simplification' of the ranged jobs.

if you look at historical evidence Casters have always been a strong choice all the time

And this is a very strange thing to say for someone that claims to have seen through Heavensward.

[dinnertime]

Raise shouldn't be free to own. Its not a difficult concept. Of course you don't want to use it, but its a safety net in a kit that is exclusive to healers and two dps jobs. Removing it wont change smn numbers, and thats exactly what I want, because where they are is perfectly fine, if they didn't have access to raise.
I'd be fine just letting it be the 'flavor of the season' if it hadn't already been the flavor of the last entire expansion, that had a mild hiccup in the first patch of shadowbringers that was fixed before TEA came out. The trend seems to always be make smn the flavor of the game, and I don't care for that. You are correct though, the balance gap between jobs (aside phys range) is pretty good atm. With that one tweak to smn, I'd say it'd be golden.

You remove Raise, Summoner still continues to be that "(low) utility caster with good mobility (since people like to factor mobility with job balancing)", and Black Mages will still complain about why it's doing better than them when they have no utility and have less mobility, so it won't change things. Not a difficult concept to grasp, either.

The more logical and fair thing to do is to simply nerf Summoner so it's slightly below the selfish DPS jobs.

[Zerathor]

There, aren't things much easier when you aren't fudging your data? If I were a blm main arguing in bad faith, I'd crop it so people don't see me sorting by 'all percentiles', or 90 or whatever suits my agenda the most. Let the bumbling players further down the bell curve bolster my argument, and count on people not bothering to double check. Don't be so coy, I know you're capable for that much at least.

Now look very closely at Ramuh, because like voidwalker last tier is it the closest to being a straight up target dummy, and thus the truest indicator of the raw potential of each job. Blm has a healthy 2.5% lead over smn, and rdm trails smn by 4.5%. You can expect blm to pull ahead even more as people push toward its skill ceiling, and likewise rdm can expect to see gains because even you know that rdms aren't getting fed right now, see: "The black mages and the smn's are getting the gear".

If you recall I said last tier that if they got caster balance to within a 5% margin I would be satisfied, and I don't know about you but its looking on track to me. I expect to see the same trend manifest for shiva due to p3 being a straightforward tank-and-spank, and I'm pretty surprised blm is beating smn on 6s already, considering how movement heavy that fight is. But that's blm for you I guess.

The only fight where smn currently has a clear lead is 7s, which is the same fight you complained about smn's being able to abuse multidotting on. Remember how you were so insistent on multidotting being a 'niche' on certain fights? I hope you're starting to put two and two together by now.

You must also remember that smn is by far the most killtime dependent caster due to the discrete nature of demi summons. This means that even if a summoner is geared now, their performance will change as the rest of the group gears up and starts killing the boss quicker. You will notice this most on 6s and 7s, and while it could go either way, these fights lock summoner into rushed 55s rotations due to the nature of their phasing, and any shorter killtimes will cut into those gains as you work 5s toward an extra demi every minute. You would know this, if you stepped out of your blm bubble.

See, nuance and context, these are the things you lack due to your perspective. No, blm is not my 'off job' any more than smn is my main. I play all three casters as you will see clearly if you look me up, and frankly if my Eden1 blm showing is indicative of an 'off job' performance, that doesn't reflect well on any of you.



That rings very hollow coming from someone that was just taking potshots at the 'simplification' of the ranged jobs.



And this is a very strange to say for someone that claims to have seen through Heavensward.

... I asked for better excuses, these are not better excuses. I'm not so petty as to lie about basic data (like yourself) THAT EVERYBODY KNOWS WHERE TO ACCESS. Again, HERE IS YOUR IMAGE.

This is getting childish. Apologize for your blatant insults, recognize smn doesn't deserve raise if its in this position, and stop making things up, or at least just admit you only want smn to be over tuned because it's your main job.

Jobs should be tuned for the content. Cherry picking a target dummy fight is not a representation of how jobs perform on average in content. It's a representation for an ideal environment that is nowhere near the norm.

Black mage is your off job, I have looked you up, insulting people really doesn't reflect good for any of your points (if you want to try putting me down for being a 93rd blm in a casual static, good for you i suppose), and you lack perspective by willfully ignoring all factual information, and just flat out assuming people are manipulating things to go against you. Which I might add isn't very mentally healthy for that last point, you may want to go check yourself out sometime.

You remove Raise, Summoner still continues to be that "(low) utility caster with good mobility (since people like to factor mobility with job balancing)", and Black Mages will still complain about why it's doing better than them when they have no utility and have less mobility, so it won't change things. Not a difficult concept to grasp, either.

The more logical and fair thing to do is to simply nerf Summoner so it's slightly below the selfish DPS jobs.

I really can't control what other people think, but I'd be fine with smn where it is losing its raise and nothing else changing. Blm has its own form of mobility that can be better in some circumstances with AM and BTL. I think that would balance the difference in mobility well enough. Blm will almost always have one of the highest performance variances regarding skill, but I like that factor.

[Kabooa]

You remove Raise, Summoner still continues to be that "(low) utility caster with good mobility (since people like to factor mobility with job balancing)", and Black Mages will still complain about why it's doing better than them when they have no utility and have less mobility, so it won't change things. Not a difficult concept to grasp, either.

The more logical and fair thing to do is to simply nerf Summoner so it's slightly below the selfish DPS jobs.

No, you remove the raise and these topics disappear, because then Summoner stops being this exception to what is otherwise a fairly well tuned game.

Damage buffs are not utility, they are bottom line. The summoner's bottom line before and post their dot nerf was 100% fine, until the raise factors in.

[dinnertime]

No, you remove the raise and these topics disappear, because then Summoner stops being this exception to what is otherwise a fairly well tuned game.

Damage buffs are not utility, they are bottom line. The summoner's bottom line before and post their dot nerf was 100% fine, until the raise factors in.

It would disappear if Summoner was at a more 'fair' spot of being below Black Mage and Samurai in performance. You don't see a lot of people lately complaining that Red Mage has Raise, do you? It's perfectly fine for a DPS to own it, especially if it fits thematically.
Damage buffs even if "bottom line" is still utility by definition. There is no exceptions to that, and that is what the general idea is for utility for the playerbase.

Like Zerathor said, I can't really control what people think as well. I'm in favor of keeping Raise and I see no issue in keeping it, and you are more than entitled to think otherwise.

[Zerathor]

It would disappear if Summoner was at a more 'fair' spot of being below Black Mage and Samurai in performance. You don't see a lot of people lately complaining that Red Mage has Raise, do you? It's perfectly fine for a DPS to own it, especially if it fits thematically.
Damage buffs even if "bottom line" is still utility by definition. There is no exceptions to that, and that is what the general idea is for utility for the playerbase.

Like Zerathor said, I can't really control what people think as well. I'm in favor of keeping Raise and I see no issue in keeping it, and you are more than entitled to think otherwise.

The thing is, it seems most smn don't want to be taxed for having the raise. If you'd rather have smn be slightly lower output in exchange for having raise, I'd be all for that as well, but know you'll be fighting a ton of other smns for having that opinion I'd think. I only want one or the other: smn loses raise, or they go down to being 95% of a blm's input. With smn's type of dps kit though, dropping them down 5% is difficult with how they perform in the variances of fights without fully changing the way their kit works.