Some views on DPS balance that everyone cares about

[Myon88]

TLDR; Get rid of the raise.

I could be all for this, but I hope you've made peace with the ramifications that will have on intra-caster balance. That is to say, there will no longer be any justification for red mage and summoner to not be doing black mage level dps.

Not the current status quo where rdm is 92% of a blm and smn is 95% of a blm (and only appears to outdps it on a certain site because of adds padding). They will be 100% blms, or conversely blm will be nerfed down to their level, and perhaps the entire caster role will be rebalanced around a lower ceiling like the ranged now. After all, if we had all three casters actually capable of doing black mage level dps, the melees and ranged would be in the doghouse even more than they currently are.

How much do you wanna bet though, that the complaints will simply change tack to some other issue. Maybe now it's black mage has to 'work too hard' for the same level of dps, or summoner can dot too well on a bunch of irrelevant fights (just like people are calling dungeon content irrelevant above me). Let it not be said that I didn't call it. Because like I said, some people don't actually want balance, they're just looking out for themselves.

Whatever the case it will be a loss for the game overall. Raise is a big part of why the casters are the most diverse, well designed, and impactful roles in the game right now. And it isn't actually unbalanced, people are just bad or unwilling to play to their respective niches. Watering things down is how you end up with the milquetoast state of the ranged today, where no one really excels in anything and everyone can do the same thing everyone else can. And all this just to attempt to satisfy the crowd that only sees the game as a raiding numbers game. I play blm in speedruns, or dungeons and hunts where the other two fall short. I play rdm in prog and stuff like palace and eureka. And I guess I'm a pretty good summoner too. Ironic isn't it? Despite having the most raiding experience here I also have the most holistic outlook on the game.

It being the least played job in all content other than TEA shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who's paid attention to it.

Yes, that's what I said didn't I? There are many reasons why people like or dislike jobs, they're not actuaries that just pick the best one from a pure utilitarian standpoint or something.

And I think I know a thing or two about failures of design yes. This is as good a time as any to remind all of you that during the 2019 media tour 2 months before the launch of Shadowbringers, I (and a couple of my peers) was in here warning of the colossal disaster in store for us that was 5.0-5.1 summoner. I appreciate you giving others the run down on monk, and instead of doing the same I will simply link the same thread I started 9 months ago: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-for-the-worse

[Kabooa]

I could be all for this, but I hope you've made peace with the ramifications that will have on intra-caster balance. That is to say, there will no longer be any justification for red mage and summoner to not be doing black mage level dps.[/URL]

Yeah, I'm like 100% okay with this. There's nothing more exciting than having a race with someone else, and there's honestly no better teacher than getting crushed outright - Creating scenarios where this doesn't lead to jobs being obsolete would be the best case to me.

I'm also not responsible for other people.

There was a point, maybe during Heavensward where I might have said one job was harder than the other, but after trapping in Sigmascape across a multitude of roles and jobs, and I've settled on 'Every job has their challenges'.

You are tunnel visioned into Savage.

Savage and Ultimate are the only relevant places for discussion, because nothing else stresses the battle system.

[Silverquick]

Savage and Ultimate are the only relevant places for discussion, because nothing else stresses the battle system.

Well then they need to stop designing Savage and Ultimate in a way that caters to the strengths of one single job. Which means they are going to have to stop making them so movement intensive.

Then the other jobs will shine the same way they do in all other forms of content.

That again is a content balance issue, not a class balance issue and has little to do with the SMN. And SMN would stop dominating that one single type of content wouldn't they?

Oh but wait then they wouldn't be any fun would they? So in other words... it is NOT the ONLY thing that stresses out the system... but rather the ONLY type of content which specifically caters to the strengths of the SMN job (ie, a Pet +DoT job). It just happens to be the only thing that is HARD for all OTHER jobs.

[ReiMakoto]

Well then they need to stop designing Savage and Ultimate in a way that caters to the strengths of one single job. Which means they are going to have to stop making them so movement intensive.

Then the other jobs will shine the same way they do in all other forms of content.

That again is a content balance issue, not a class balance issue and has little to do with the SMN. And SMN would stop dominating that one single type of content wouldn't they?

Oh but wait then they wouldn't be any fun would they? So in other words... it is NOT the ONLY thing that stresses out the system... but rather the ONLY type of content which specifically caters to the strengths of the SMN job (ie, a Pet +DoT job). It just happens to be the only thing that is HARD for all OTHER jobs.

I am willing to put money on the fact if people putting up logs for savage were to bother putting up logs for dungeons ect SMN would come out on top in those as well, their cleave is insane as is their general damage, movement isn't why theyre the strongest in savage, in 90%+ range everyone has as close to 100% uptime as possible, its just a matter of the facts its numbers are overtuned. Your sample size for dungeons is actually so small its hardly relevant, there is nothing intrisic to smns pet/ dot design that makes it more powerful in savage, its just its numbers are high.

Edit: For context your're saying the DOT and pet autos are what's making smn so strong, they make up ~20-25% of smns total damage in a fight, which is about the same that Bards Auto's +Dots do in a fight, SMN is just essentially a caster with autoattacks, this is not a case of its class design or archetype only being good for savage, its just a case of number overtune

[Silverquick]

I am willing to put money on the fact if people putting up logs for savage were to bother putting up logs for dungeons ect SMN would come out on top in those as well,

They are already,

Check out the actual top DPS numbers put out by SMNs in End Game dungeons. Those are wayyyy higher than any normal player puts out. So they obviously are being done by some seriously geared up players.

[NaiXizi]

They are already,

Check out the actual top DPS numbers put out by SMNs in End Game dungeons. Those are wayyyy higher than any normal player puts out. So they obviously are being done by some seriously geared up players.

Oh, hello, thank you for viewing my article. My article is somewhat subjective, and some inadequacies please forgive me.
But I'm not sure, please check the following.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=69
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=70
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=71
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=72
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=DPS&boss=1050

You know, SMN has the characteristics of higher resurrection and mobility, why he will compete with BLM and SAM without resurrection and mobility conditions.

[TheRealQuah]

Well then they need to stop designing Savage and Ultimate in a way that caters to the strengths of one single job. Which means they are going to have to stop making them so movement intensive.

Then the other jobs will shine the same way they do in all other forms of content.

That again is a content balance issue, not a class balance issue and has little to do with the SMN. And SMN would stop dominating that one single type of content wouldn't they?

Oh but wait then they wouldn't be any fun would they? So in other words... it is NOT the ONLY thing that stresses out the system... but rather the ONLY type of content which specifically caters to the strengths of the SMN job (ie, a Pet +DoT job). It just happens to be the only thing that is HARD for all OTHER jobs.

false, i know people who dont do savage nor ultimate but actually complainng and care about their damage, theres some people who complaining in this forum dont have a trace of doing savage nor ultimate, casual player also complaining againt time they need to finish a dungeon because of their job lower dps etc etc, so sorry, its not only high tier players matter.

if you are talking the NEED to care about damage then theres no need to... why? all class can clear them even in week 1...

If you have a casual player complaining that it's taking too long to finish their dungeon, then it isn't because they went as RDM instead of BLM. It's because they're trash. Same goes for people locking classes out of content. The reason they can't clear isn't because they have a RDM in the party, it's because they suck. A competent RDM is better than 95% of every other DPS player.

Job balance should be done around the hardest content and the best players in the game. It's not elitist. It's not ignoring the larger casual playerbase. It's how it's done in every game, and is the only way it can be done. Imagine if they balanced classes around Barry "25 minute Expert Roulette" Casual - competent players would clear everything in 5 minutes.

SMN is overpowered. SE know it is and agree, that's why they nerfed it, they just didn't go far enough. It's nothing to do with fight design. The top clear in the world for Shiva currently has both a SMN and BLM. Guess what, the BLM has more uptime.

[Silverquick]

Oh, hello, thank you for viewing my article. My article is somewhat subjective, and some inadequacies please forgive me.
But I'm not sure, please check the following.
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...gregate=amount
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=69
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=70
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=71
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...amount&boss=72
and
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statisti...=DPS&boss=1050

You know, SMN has the characteristics of higher resurrection and mobility, why he will compete with BLM and SAM without resurrection and mobility conditions.

It is not that your argument or rather that your post is inaccurate, it is that you misunderstood the actual arguement being made.

The arguement being made is not that SMN doesn't dominate Savage and Movement intensive content... it is that it does NOT dominate non movement intensive combat where other jobs come out on top quite significantly. Indicating that it is not a SMN balance issue as both jobs you named actually come out on top of Summoner in DPS output in various types of non Savage, non movement intensive instances, or rather instances that do not require an extreme type of movement.

Indicating that it is not a SMN balance issue... but rather a content balance issue that caters specifically to SMN strengths where the other jobs were never designed to be able to handle that, as those other jobs have no problems in general beating the SMN.

In other words all Savage/Ultimate content is flawed in its execution, as if they specifically designed a situation that would pose a difficult challenge for ALL other jobs except the Summoner because of the way the job works... as evidenced by the fact it is not dominating either Dungeons or Alliance Raids and even a lot of Normal 8 man Eden Raids.

So the SMN only dominates ONE specific TYPE of combat. Any instance without an extreme amount of movement and the SMN loses... in some cases BADLY.

[Zerathor]

I could be all for this, but I hope you've made peace with the ramifications that will have on intra-caster balance. That is to say, there will no longer be any justification for red mage and summoner to not be doing black mage level dps.

Not the current status quo where rdm is 92% of a blm and smn is 95% of a blm (and only appears to outdps it on a certain site because of adds padding). They will be 100% blms, or conversely blm will be nerfed down to their level, and perhaps the entire caster role will be rebalanced around a lower ceiling like the ranged now.

Almost would have an actual point there, if a large portion of fights didn't involve adds or multiple targets. I know it must be a radical notion to assume balance should be considering the type of content that is normally produced, but give it a consideration. As it stands on the majority of fights, with players of the same level of skill, smn will out perform blm while still having access to a raise. Raise should be cut, and nothing else changes. That would be balanced enough. Blm can dominate a fight that isn't multi target, smn will dominate the fights that involve multi target and adds (which will likely be at least 2 fights in a tier).

Because like I said, some people don't actually want balance, they're just looking out for themselves.

Could not have described yourself better.

I agree with your previous point that this is a nice golden age of double caster, but that will inevitably change soon enough with some kind of range buff. And you know which of those 2 casters is going to stay relevant? The one that puts out more damage in most scenarios and has a raise. Mary Sue: the job.