Mediocrity should NOT be the standard for players in any content.

[hasana]

So your problem is people being mediocre but you're ok with people getting grey parses?
Got it.

I'll keep doing the bare minimum at my job!

A player struggling and getting a grey parse because he is not a good player is ok.
A player getting grey parse because chill dude its just a game I'm having fun just pressing Jolt and why are you complaining boss died lol is not.

[testname]

Coming to Savage, and Extreme with minimum ilvl, at very first day, not knowing Your job rotation, not having food and melds, - doing less damage than healers

= "You don't pay my sub" =
= "I play as I want" =

Either You don't pay for my sub, and I want to clear content

If You are coming to sing to party, and You are just Deaf not knowing what C#, E, A, - do me a favor and don't come at all, coz whole Tune will be corrupted

[AngeliouxRein]

I really do think they could come up with a system that rewards players for performing well, but without telling anyone but themselves.

IE, they could get a tomestone/gil bonus after a roulette if they didn't take damage from specific mechanics (Namely, stuff that it is entirely on the individual to avoid and not stuff that can hit you because of another player being dumb), or if they did a certain total amount of damage to the bosses. They could take it further by having achievements for performing well in a certain number of instances.

This reminds me of games like Dragon Nest that had a rating system for nest and dungeons. Each time you completed a dungeon/nest the game would rate your overall performance and give a boost in rewards. I think, however, you could see other people’s ratings as well. Can’t remember entirely but the rating system was like a personal motivator to do better. Which was needed because content in that game gradually got harder the higher level you went.

Which is what I thought this game would do... but I never knew the crowd of easy-as-possible folk would somehow be able to control the overall difficulty of an entire game. It just weird to me, honestly.

[Yeshes]

Yet for the perfect harmony, espcially in gear-only progression settings, even the most intrinsically motivated raider would eventually reach their patience's limit if no better gear (or flashy mount) were available. It's afterall an endless loop of beating content and get better gear > better gear for beating upcoming harder content > rinse and repeat.

Infinite progress against an unwinnable goal = MMO game foundation #1 (Economics calls this the "Red Queen" dilemma.)

Behavioral conditioning to favor theorycrafting and completionism as a means to drive subscriptions (i.e., Status = Time, Reputation = Completion %, etc)

The singular plaint over time being that new players get an easier time of it; accurate, and as predictable as the sunrise. The only way to continue acquisition of players is to expand access to content, lower requirements for completion, and essentially sacrifice veteran "pride" to effectively level the playing field to the point that everyone is as close to "the end" of the game as possible (i.e., as far from it as the design can push or gate them).

That includes simplifying and/or bridging previously gated content when required (context: to support new player acquisition).

Players arrive with the assumptions that their respective history of experience in playing games have given them. Game developers and publishers are actually very good at using new player apathy to debride and whittle away at veteran pride (basically the focus of this OP's complaint).

Personally, I take outbursts like this as par for a very normal and historically demonstrable course.

I love mmo games but I am a poor player due to physical limitations so I only go on the challenging stuff if/when I know I'm with people who understand that we can't all be reflex perfect raid machines.

Or people who understand that people are more important than any of these infinitely regenerated pixels that we're playing with.... complaining about "what is" takes time away from enjoyment regardless... a choice, but not the one I would normally select for myself.

There is another lesson here - rushing to content (and thus content exhaustion) is a significant part of your current experience causes - personally, I play one to two expansions behind current precisely because I game on my terms, for my enjoyment, and if there isn't a reasonable expectation of being able to enjoy the full story and a sense of completion, I don't buy it.

TL;DR - MMO games ask you to accept their definitions for success because it puts you on their revenue treadmill. That doesn't mean you have to stay on them, but if you do, you really need to understand you're ASKING for this treatment.

[Vulcann]

If you don't want to worry about what a random player is doing or how they are playing ... then don't group with randoms. find a group that plays how you want them to play.

[QT_Melon]

So your problem is people being mediocre but you're ok with people getting grey parses?
Got it.

I'll keep doing the bare minimum at my job!

I think people really REALLY need to understand how FFLogs work before using this as an example.

This is exactly why I feel it's more of a community problem than Devs

People who don't understand how FFLogs work using the worst example and understanding of it.
Then we already had someone do the very much OVERUSED and just getting old "You don't pay my sub" when there's really BARELY anyone who says that at all.

[EtherRose]

The only problem i have with people are those who don't bother to watch video guides before attempting a raid/ etc. I understand that you rather "Experience" the run blind but you're wasting other peoples time and being a nuisance when you die constantly to the same thing every time and refuse to watch a simple 5 min video guide and get all defensive when asked.

[iGyro]

The only problem i have with people are those who don't bother to watch video guides before attempting a raid/ etc. I understand that you rather "Experience" the run blind but you're wasting other peoples time and being a nuisance when you die constantly to the same thing every time and refuse to watch a simple 5 min video guide and get all defensive when asked.

If they're attempting Savage blind this late in the tier, then they need to state it in the Party Finder. I don't have problem with people learning the fight organically, but I understand your argument entirely if they jump into a Duty Completion party and have no clue. (I've seen instances of this happening and I ask them to either make a PF or look at a guide before attempting the content again.)

I do the bare minimum all the time.
Getting grey parses don't matter if I can clear with it.

First time clear of grey parses don't matter, because your first run isn't going to be perfect. However, if you're consistently doing grey even after the gear boost, then you're part of the problem than the solution. (Your post alone is a strong red flag.) As a raid leader, that tells me you're not willing to improve your play style or bother with min-maxing your rotation.

If you spend time maximizing effort into the fight, you'll be surprised when you're killing the boss one or two minutes faster than before.
(Ex. My group can easily kill E2 Savage before Quietus compared to our first clear being at enrage.)

[QT_Melon]

Reading people talk about color parses and STILL not understanding how FFLogs works is EXTREMELY disheartening.

It's not just about color but MULTITUDES of context and what each job could do. Then the time frame changes the percentile. Basically the parses uploaded early on was set by a small sample. The players who posted even said so. Then it's also affected by party contribution and makeup. On top of that a death affects the parse. If a player dies because someone else fails the mechanic it affects their output.

The data is only "Good" for a limited time frame as a measurement DUE to the fact that once the top players have cleared and set in the data, they also will be geared up and look for ways to get the highest parse to upload.

A GOOD raid leader takes in a multitude of factors, not just "the color of the parse" and if they have "better gear" They look to see where their players should be in terms or ranking better within their own party composition. Is this a fight where a monk may not perform as well due to certain mechanics? Is this strategy working out well? Is there a latency issue with a particular instance that is affecting the player?

Now using the analysis data is better (but it seems most people don't do that - and seeing the responses in this thread...) you can see if you're messing up on a part of your rotation, if something is clipping- which people don't understand this concept well. The problem is, that it takes a longer time and more thought to process "for a video game" and people just go to the color of a parse from other uploads.


That said, it's a great tool to help improve your DPS and learn where you can correct your mistakes. If it helps you improve it's great that's what it's for. Mediocrity is just also just looking at one "standard" or set of data and using that as a basis. Because you didn't bother to understand what those tools were for. - and that mediocrity is DEFINITELY a community problem.

Tl;Dr people not actually understanding the tools they're using for their argument.

[Nhadaly]

All i will add to the thread is this:

Im sick and tired of going into pugs to clear ex/savage content and encountering people who dont give a shit or actively harm their party with their performance.

Or people entering groups that specifically say that they're ahead of them and then when they perform below expectations on the mechanics they're supposed to know they get defensive.

Its why i dont pug anymore, its why i dont bother with randoms and why i always find like-minded statics, i got sick and tired of the "me underperforming is fine, grey is fine because you dont pay muh sub" of the toxic casual community and the above.

To all people who dont want players who dont give a damn in ex/savage: Find an FC and/or a static and progress with them, your life will change, ranting about it on the forums doesnt change anything sadly.