Mediocrity should NOT be the standard for players in any content.

[Melichoir]

One thing I think everyone should remember in topics such as this... one person's "mediocrity" is another person's "skillcap". Take me for example. I think I'm an above average WHM, if not actually pretty darn good. But someone else, say a WHM who does ultimates (which I have never done), might group me with me and find my performance is mediocre or even bad! And compared to him it might well be! It's all relative. Expecting everyone you meet to be at least as good as you if not better isn't realistic, nor is expecting the game to be balanced around the higher skill ranges rather than the average.

It's relative and no one should be demanding that you can clear Ultimates within 6 months of starting, however we should not be thinking in terms of skill caps. We should be thinking in terms of "How can I improve today?" Even if its a minor improvement today from yesterday, you do that every day and yes, eventually you will be able to do savage content. It's a lot about mindset. If you say "this is as good as Ill get", and dont seek to improve, then youre just giving yourself an out to be lazy or not care about content.

[Blackheart]

This thread wasn't about learning or asking questions. It was about people not even trying. People wanting to learn and ask questions is the opposite of that. Those individuals are above whom the OP was describing.

We are talking about people like this:

• Dungeon is The Qitana Ravel
• No new player alert from the system
• It's GNB, RDM, DRG, and me as WHM
• Get to the first mob, DRG eats every AOE and every mechanic wave
• For the rest of the dungeon, the DRG will be hit by every advertised AOE. There's no attempt by the DRG at all to move out of the way.
• GNB tends to lose mobs because he does one AOE at the start then single rotates until I get hate.
• RDM rarely uses Embolden, doesn't Enchant Moulinet, sometimes remembers he has a burst melee combo
• The DPS do less damage than Trusts (yes, I parse, so I know what I could consider the baseline. DPS that do less damage than Trust = bad DPS)
• I am out DPSing the tank. I am riding close to the DRG in DPS.
• By the time we get to the last set of mobs prior to the final boss, I was done going above and beyond the effort they were putting in. I stopped DPSing, just tossed regen and medica II and spammed emotes with me stopping only to oGCD cure and reapply Regen.
• I also didn't DPS on the final boss. The boss fight took longer with this group than with Trusts.
• GNB: "GGTYFP"

So, explain to me the "learning" part here? No questions were asked. No changes in behavior from the two DPS and Tank.

Also, who was/were the actual elitist in this party? Explain, because I am sure you are going to say me, and I want to know what makes you think that.

even by my VERY low standards, that's....that's just horrible, i'm sorry you went through that.

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

But there are actual limits to just how good someone can get. Not everyone has the potential to always improve, whether it be due to physical or mental limitations. I'm older so my hand/eye coordination isnt what it was 20 years ago and its only going to get worse as time goes on. I don't imagine getting much better at games in general or FFXIV in particular than I am at this point, and my performance at games will likely degrade as I get even older.

[Nestama]

Why don't you just run the roulette with friends that can play up to your standards then? Clearly you feel put out by the DF roulette and filthy for having to deal with people that are behind the curve. I would say running a parser in not even a level 80 dungeon is elitist. Why were you running it?

You read through all of that and still find that playstyle (not dodging AoE's, doing less than Trust's, etc etc) to be perfectly reasonable? Everyone's (low) standards should default at "at least be at or above Trust skill level." Because at least then they're dodging the telegraphed AoE's (a thing that we learned is a thing to not stand in the first time we see it, be it at level 1 or level 70) and maybe doing decent DPS to show they at least read the tool tips provided in-game (a lot of what I learned on jobs levelling up is based on reading tool tips and practising on a dummy while waiting for queues. I actually have no idea how to play DRK in level 80 content, but I know I wasn't letting one-three people drag me through the levelling dungeons).

[xxvaynxx]

I play how I want.
I'll give you my PayPal email if you wanna pay my sub!

[Blackheart]

But there are actual limits to just how good someone can get. Not everyone has the potential to always improve, whether it be due to physical or mental limitations. I'm older so my hand/eye coordination isnt what it was 20 years ago and its only going to get worse as time goes on. I don't imagine getting much better at games in general or FFXIV in particular than I am at this point, and my performance at games will likely degrade as I get even older.

i for one can understand that not everyone can be the very best, no one every was, and my standards of groups is almost as low as it can get, but what was listed above is just absolutely unacceptable. All i ask for, literally is:

Tanks: take aggro and tank everything
Dps: Kill everyAll the things tank grabs
Heals: heal (yes, i'm one person who doesn't care if healer does dps, it's their choice IMO"
and EVERYONE make ATLEAST an ATTEMPT to dodge AoEs, don't have to be perfect, don't have to get out of every single on, Heck, Make an attempt, and i'm glad, i'm golden, you tried, good job! BUT they didn't even get that, and it's seriously bare minimum requirement, and that's saaaaaaad man.

[fumofu]

Your choice of words in title is incredibly stupid. "Mediocrity should NOT be the standard for players in any content"... Excuse me, but what should be standard of your liking? Exceptionality? Excellence? Perfection? All I can say is that your expectations are crazy and you set yourself for constant disappointments.

Also, I really disapprove on your view about unsync content. It's fine as it is now as it let's us choose difficulty of ex trials/savage. Want maximum challenge ? Do it when it's fresh/relevant or later with sync/no echo function. Don't care about challenge and just wanna damn clear or mount or glam? Wait several months/years to over-gear and try then. What's wrong with that? Both types of players gets what they want that way. Remove unsync option and i'll have less incentive to keep playing this game and paying subscription. Understand my point?

[Nicodemus_Mercy]

i for one can understand that not everyone can be the very best, no one every was, and my standards of groups is almost as low as it can get, but what was listed above is just absolutely unacceptable. All i ask for, literally is:

Tanks: take aggro and tank everything
Dps: Kill everyAll the things tank grabs
Heals: heal (yes, i'm one person who doesn't care if healer does dps, it's their choice IMO"
and EVERYONE make ATLEAST an ATTEMPT to dodge AoEs, don't have to be perfect, don't have to get out of every single on, Heck, Make an attempt, and i'm glad, i'm golden, you tried, good job! BUT they didn't even get that, and it's seriously bare minimum requirement, and that's saaaaaaad man.

I think this request is reasonable.

[Valic]

I more or less agree with the sentiment behind your rant but I do take exception at this point:



This is stupid, because this is no different than saying if I get to level 50 and go back to do a level 20 quests, Im just a no skill pleb because I got the gear and job skills that void any challenge that the quest may have had. That the only true way to do that quest is if Im level synced with gear that is available at that point in the game. It's a stupid point to make.

Furthermore, people waiting for the next xpac have to actually wait a while. Let me put it this way - You cant cheese O12S currently if you dont know the mechanics at all and are completely inept at the game. Even if your wearing max 470 gear (which would also mean youve been either raiding or been consistent in clearing content and again not make you a complete pleb) M/F is gonna kill your dumb butt if you dont know the fight most likely, and Hello World in P2 is gonna wipe you if you make it there. You would have to wait till much further into the expac to start cheesing o12s. And before the "Well PF is a Thing" that requires competent players to carry you, and if they dont mind carrying dead weight that hurts their chances at the mount, then thats their choice. And if youre gonna wait that long to cheese it, fine. It isnt the pinnacle of content. Its just older expired content at that point. It becomes the "level 20 quest" at that point.

Beyond that, yeah, the game does dumb down a lot and I think hats gonna be detrimental to the game long term. But at least employ arguments about this that are relevant. Complaining outdated content can be cheesed by being vastly over leveled and the only way to get in that state is to wait a few years is dumb. Youre undercutting your overall idea by using this talking point.

It's less about being able to cheese old content, but the acknowledgement of this pattern that people will actively look at current level content and rather than try to give effort... will instead know "I can just wait until we have the gear and people to carry me through it". Frankly I like as you said that O12s still wipes people for not knowing things and this forces an even longer wait on player who expected to be able to cheese it. That should be more normal imo. Its why I like content like the ultimates as they are, because it's something you have to earn. Being able to clear 2 expansions worth of old content in new gear/stats/skills isn't the main issue necessarily, but rather the mentality that it creates. That "oh, I don't have to get good, I'll just wait it out until I know it's brainless so a chump like me can do it". It's that knowing this pattern will repeat and embrace this mindset for lack of effort. Personally, I ran O12s recently, i could feel there was difficulty in it still, though likely not as much as it used to be. Regardless, I wiped and I had to learn things to beat it. I feel as though that should be more normal, but I just wish I could say the same for deltascape and sigmascape. Alexander I'd say is pretty reasonable if you can plow through it by this point in time but I'd love for that gap to be as tight as possible like how O12s is to us now.

The point there is how often mediocrity is embraced in knowing that doing anything current doesn't matter because all it takes is time to overcome it rather than actually have to learn how to optimize. However this is just in plain regards to EX's and savages... which I get aren't everyone's cup of tea and aren't forced content. So that's not too high on the list, imo. If you wanna wait out a year or two, fine fine, be as late as you want in getting that mount or that glamour, that's your call but this shouldn't be yet another avenue to encourage "I don't have to know anything!". What is considered normally above average difficulty in content (hence it being titled as savage or extreme), should be noted as such and encourage players to accumulate in an effort to succeed at something they truly want/desire. Again, I understand, it's old content, good for you waiting on it (or in some cases, you weren't around to clear it, that's why we have min ilvl as an option for people too who want that experience). I just feel it's too commonplace to see it and shrug until 2 years later knowing that is exactly what will happen. It doesn't help players learn or encourage wanting to, it encourages laziness that can be gotten away with. I repeat though, this is savage/ex content we're talking about, so... I GET IT, everyone isn't willing to push their limits for current tier content or content like that in general sync'd. We're talking more about the base of the game, the MSQ, common quests, job quests, solo instances, things you do in roulettes each day. The things that are casually run each day and allow you to get away with murder and be rewarded for it because there's lack of guidance and requirement of competence for it.

One thing I think everyone should remember in topics such as this... one person's "mediocrity" is another person's "skillcap". Take me for example. I think I'm an above average WHM, if not actually top tier. But someone else, say a WHM who clears ultimates (which I have never done), might group me with me and find my performance is mediocre or even bad! And compared to him it might well be! It's all relative. Expecting everyone you meet to be at least as good as you if not better isn't realistic, nor is expecting the game to be balanced around the higher skill ranges rather than the average.

Let me clarify....

As a WHM, you know medica 1(medica 2 preferably but if you're keeping us up, idc) heals your group. The skill reads, it's an aoe heal, a cast, so when you cats it, you heal anyone in your vicinity.

I get a healer that is using cure 1 on each individual person every time the group is hit with aoe's to the point people are dying and they're having to raise each time too. No, I'm not kidding here. The floor for this should not be that low that they can do this and then be rewarded for it. The skillcap is fine as is, a good healer that WANTS to be good knows the differences in their aoe heals. Why use Cure 3, Medica 2, medica 1? The skill floor is, "I'm usingAT LEAST ONE TYPE OF aoe heal, any of them because I know it's an aoe heal and that's something the content punishes for not doing". Unfortunately, it's not difficult enough and that can actually fly these days and well.... nothing learned for it.

We gain more skills the higher level we get too, completing our kit by giving us things we may need to progress. If the game is saying "you don't need those" at that point later on, then what's the point of having them to begin with? Why get more skills next expac if this kinda baseline will fly again as is?

Your choice of words in title is incredibly stupid. "Mediocrity should NOT be the standard for players in any content"... Excuse me, but what should be standard of your liking? Exceptionality? Excellence? Perfection? All I can say is that your expectations are crazy and you set yourself for constant disappointments.

Also, I really disapprove on your view about unsync content. It's fine as it is now as it let's us choose difficulty of ex trials/savage. Want maximum challenge ? Do it when it's fresh/relevant or later with sync/no echo function. Don't care about challenge and just wanna damn clear or mount or glam? Wait several months/years to over-gear and try then. What's wrong with that? Both types of players gets what they want that way. Remove unsync option and i'll have less incentive to keep playing this game and paying subscription. Understand my point?

My expectation is you know you have an aoe and single target. You know you have an aoe heal and a single target heal. You have a tank stance for tanking. You have mitigation because you have died to the same attack 5 times now and don't use it. Very.... Very.... baseline competence. My difference in opinion on EX/savage is what it is, and that's fine, but that's not the focus of this thread. I directed this thread at everyone, for the core content of the game, not just including savage/extremes(if even at all). I don't think you've read beyond the title or perhaps you skimmed parts of my post(s) because I well understand what you've stated and I'm not aiming my complaints at that in particular. Rather the lack of incentive to want to learn and not be a detriment to a party doing regular content because you can still succeed doing less than expected. I see plenty of BLM's refuse to do a stack mechanic in a 4 man dungeon because hey... what's the punishment? Someone else will pick up my slack, no one dies, and we continue on our merry way because content is getting simpler and simpler to get by with.

i for one can understand that not everyone can be the very best, no one every was, and my standards of groups is almost as low as it can get, but what was listed above is just absolutely unacceptable. All i ask for, literally is:

Tanks: take aggro and tank everything
Dps: Kill everyAll the things tank grabs
Heals: heal (yes, i'm one person who doesn't care if healer does dps, it's their choice IMO"
and EVERYONE make ATLEAST an ATTEMPT to dodge AoEs, don't have to be perfect, don't have to get out of every single on, Heck, Make an attempt, and i'm glad, i'm golden, you tried, good job! BUT they didn't even get that, and it's seriously bare minimum requirement, and that's saaaaaaad man.

I can't emphasize this post enough.

It's relative and no one should be demanding that you can clear Ultimates within 6 months of starting, however we should not be thinking in terms of skill caps. We should be thinking in terms of "How can I improve today?" Even if its a minor improvement today from yesterday, you do that every day and yes, eventually you will be able to do savage content. It's a lot about mindset. If you say "this is as good as Ill get", and dont seek to improve, then youre just giving yourself an out to be lazy or not care about content.

This as well. SE doesn't help this though and it's all the more encouraged.

I play how I want.
I'll give you my PayPal email if you wanna pay my sub!

Ladies and gentleman.... the epitome if why we will never see content that challenges players in the core content. You heard it here folks, they play how they want... So if that means you're getting no dps out of them as a dps! Or they're tanking toggling their stance on/off despite it getting people killed, or outright refusing to heal and instead dps forcing your party to die often... WELL GOOD NEWS! YOU CAN DO JUST THAT AND YOU WILL STILL SUCCEED! Sure it forces everyone to do a lil extra, but hey, the content says you're just fine doing exactly that if you can get away with it!

Play exactly how you like and you will be rewarded! You're using stuns on unstunnable enemies while standing in aoe's you could've dodged? Using cure 3 on that target miles from you the whole fight because they're the "main tank" and ignore the remainder of your party being attacked? Absolutely acceptable and commendable even! There's no way this would be detrimental to your party, you guys can still clear it without any reason to adjust or learn \o/! Isn't that great?


This ain't breathe of the wild. It's not a sandbox. It shouldn't be treated as one where you can get away with doing anything. If you fail to do the bare minimum of your job and the bare minimum of mechanics in the base/casual content... it should not go rewarded.

I think this request is reasonable.

It's absolutely reasonable and yet... More and more each day am I seeing this "adjust" mentality engraved into people. As if doing the thing you picked is taboo

[xxvaynxx]

stuff

I do the bare minimum all the time.
Getting grey parses don't matter if I can clear with it.