The Reason Zenos.

[Kallera]

I think my biggest problem I have with zenos is that he regularly seems to be scoring own goals in the favor of the protagonists’ side, and his goal—a rematch with more divine puppets that we just so happen to be skilled at killing, just isn’t interesting to me as it has only one outcome, he loses against us.

I find that Zenos is not only just boring, but detrimental to the story, as a villain is literally paving the way of the heroes’ victory, just for the fight at the end which, while exciting for him, is not exciting for me, as it only has one true outcome, his defeat, as he time and again just forfeits his victories and acts against his allies. Zenos’ railroading ultimately serves not even himself.

[Valic]

I think my biggest problem I have with zenos is that he regularly seems to be scoring own goals in the favor of the protagonists’ side, and his goal—a rematch with more divine puppets that we just so happen to be skilled at killing, just isn’t interesting to me as it has only one outcome, he loses against us.

I find that Zenos is not only just boring, but detrimental to the story, as a villain is literally paving the way of the heroes’ victory, just for the fight at the end which, while exciting for him, is not exciting for me, as it only has one true outcome, his defeat, as he time and again just forfeits his victories and acts against his allies. Zenos’ railroading ultimately serves not even himself.

Something to consider for what I put in bold there... The only outcome is he loses against us?.... How are you so certain the writers are going to so easily just let him fall a 2nd time that easily after such buildup? Who says we don't lose to him?


Has anyone considered the possibility that WoL ISN'T god itself for a change? I know during HW we all remembered we weren't... seems like we've forgotten again. Seems like a good time for a good ol fashion beatdown where Zenos genuinely turns us into dust. If anything, I consider him making enemies is only going to make him stronger and stronger.

[Mansion]

Something to consider for what I put in bold there... The only outcome is he loses against us?.... How are you so certain the writers are going to so easily just let him fall a 2nd time that easily after such buildup? Who says we don't lose to him?


Has anyone considered the possibility that WoL ISN'T god itself for a change? I know during HW we all remembered we weren't... seems like we've forgotten again. Seems like a good time for a good ol fashion beatdown where Zenos genuinely turns us into dust. If anything, I consider him making enemies is only going to make him stronger and stronger.

That's interesting for sure, but I'm not convinced the writers could be that bold in storytelling. I'm not saying our next fight with Zenos will be an easy win, but I easily see something along the lines of Emet Selch, some kind of bittersweet victory. Not for the same reasons of course, but more like "Yeah we killed Zenos, but there's still so much going on" (that could be the unstability of Garlemald right now for instance).

Then a small precision, while we are not a god, we are supported by one quite litteraly. And that cutscene in the end of 5.1 makes me imagine that Zenos would be interested to be Zodiarch's Champion so that he can fight Hydealyn's Champion on even ground. Heavensward did not revoke our title of Warrior of Light, rather Midgardsomr "walled" us out of reach of Hydealyn, and we had to regain that blessing of Light. But we could still fight primals (Ravana and Bismarck) and do crazy strong stuff during that time. And we only got stronger since then, I guess.

[MitsukiKimura]

Emet Selch deserves the title. Giving us his back story about the Ascians was really interesting, along with his joker humor. Zenos just makes me want to spend 15 minutes smashing his face in the ground.

[Brightmore]

Something to consider for what I put in bold there... The only outcome is he loses against us?.... How are you so certain the writers are going to so easily just let him fall a 2nd time that easily after such buildup? Who says we don't lose to him?


Has anyone considered the possibility that WoL ISN'T god itself for a change? I know during HW we all remembered we weren't... seems like we've forgotten again. Seems like a good time for a good ol fashion beatdown where Zenos genuinely turns us into dust. If anything, I consider him making enemies is only going to make him stronger and stronger.

In a storytelling a villain can defeat the hero, but not obliterate it. His fall is sure, what a villain can do is kill a hero's friend, it´s the only way to really reach us, such happened with Ysayle and Haucherfart. For him to become an uber villain would require a symbyose with Zodiark and he losing completely his will, just being a puppet.

[Gemina]

In a storytelling a villain can defeat the hero, but not obliterate it. His fall is sure, what a villain can do is kill a hero's friend, it´s the only way to really reach us, such happened with Ysayle and Haucherfart. For him to become an uber villain would require a symbyose with Zodiark and he losing completely his will, just being a puppet.

That isn't much different than Elidibus being in possession of Zenos' body. At that point, you're not fighting the real Zenos. I think that's part of the problem with him. The fight at Ghimlyt Dark was shaped up to be this 'showdown', and most of us are thinking, "Yeah... that's not really Zenos." A fluttering perspective out there might see it as simply the WoL stepping in the foil another Ascian plot.

Up to now, it was ok to place the will of Zodiark into the Ascians because being an agent of Zodiark is how they are established. Zenos clearly is not tempered in anyway and has a will of his own. To thrust Zodiark's will into him (even though they likely have the same goal of eliminating Hydaelyn's champion) would basically kill his character. From what I gather, I think more people want Zenos to be an iconic villain worthy of representing XIV in Dissidia than they want him killed off.

Great villains don't tend to peak and valley. They are pretty consistent and often continue to escalate until finally defeated if on screen, or continue to get hyped up if an off screen villain. I thought Zenos' implementation was really well done. He was hyped up in HW, and came in with his game face on at the Reach. It was all going so well, but when the time came to deliver, the devs didn't have the nads to have him kill Y'shtola. That would have did it. We all would be hating the hell out of him right now for the reasons the devs intended.

I won't deny that it takes some seriously big juevos to kill of a well-liked and received character. Minfillia? So easy, they've done it multiple times. Y'shtola? Woo boy. That window of opportunity has passed now though. The best they can do with Zenos at this point is at least make him consistent. Making him a puppet or plot stoning a significant death are too big of swings in either direction.

[Crushnight]

Something to consider for what I put in bold there... The only outcome is he loses against us?.... How are you so certain the writers are going to so easily just let him fall a 2nd time that easily after such buildup? Who says we don't lose to him?


Has anyone considered the possibility that WoL ISN'T god itself for a change? I know during HW we all remembered we weren't... seems like we've forgotten again. Seems like a good time for a good ol fashion beatdown where Zenos genuinely turns us into dust. If anything, I consider him making enemies is only going to make him stronger and stronger.

If we lost to Zenos.... again then how long do you think they will drag out the training needed or find the mucguffin needed to bring out to defeat him, somehow someway Zenos will be beaten again it would just be a case of when, and we already did that stick for 4.0 so repeating with the exact same character sounds like a really bad story idea.

Unfortunately for a lot of people Zenos wore out his welcome in SB, had he have been entertaining to me making his presence just ooze out(I mean Fordola/Yotsuyu both gave more oomph when sharing scenes with him) I wouldn't have as big of a problem with him, but he doesn't he is flat and dry rather than flat and flavourful.

[Valic]

If we lost to Zenos.... again then how long do you think they will drag out the training needed or find the mucguffin needed to bring out to defeat him, somehow someway Zenos will be beaten again it would just be a case of when, and we already did that stick for 4.0 so repeating with the exact same character sounds like a really bad story idea.

Unfortunately for a lot of people Zenos wore out his welcome in SB, had he have been entertaining to me making his presence just ooze out(I mean Fordola/Yotsuyu both gave more oomph when sharing scenes with him) I wouldn't have as big of a problem with him, but he doesn't he is flat and dry rather than flat and flavourful.

"Again"... I don't mean we fought him and we lost as in being knocked out. I mean we fight, to the death, and potentially hydaelyn's champion is erased for a period of time... possibly turned to ghost like a certain someone in ShB. I think we're just spoiled as the WoL and see no other plausible story writing because we assume we'll auto win... Which if this game gives us a happy ending, sure I guess? I personally find his personality and plans go beyond trivial pursuits and kind've welcome him killing us and everyone we know.

Maybe even cause the ending that a certain someone in ShB saw for us?

[Nezerius]

"Again"... I don't mean we fought him and we lost as in being knocked out. I mean we fight, to the death, and potentially hydaelyn's champion is erased for a period of time... possibly turned to ghost like a certain someone in ShB. I think we're just spoiled as the WoL and see no other plausible story writing because we assume we'll auto win... Which if this game gives us a happy ending, sure I guess? I personally find his personality and plans go beyond trivial pursuits and kind've welcome him killing us and everyone we know.

Maybe even cause the ending that a certain someone in ShB saw for us?

We fought him to the death in the Royal Menagerie. Also, how would "erased for a period of time" even work? Would NPCs be shocked at seeing you, claiming that they're seeing someone who is supposed to be dead? How exactly would the story progress, considering the player character is kind of the vessel through which people play this game? Would we go to some kind of Spirit World for an expansion/couple of patches before fighting our way back to the lands of the living?

Even if that'd happen, we'd likely still end up defeating Zenos afterwards, because I can't see SE going with a permanent bad ending. They couldn't even kill Y'shtola in Stormblood, there'd be a meltdown on the forums if they permanently killed off the WoL.

[NessaWyvern]

Maybe someone already mentioned this, but perhaps they'll do something cool/wacky with him this time around in this expansion, that will warrant him being in there.