The Reason Zenos.

[Enla]

I have more faith in Zenos as a potential villain if Ishikawa continues to helm the writing department. She has a fairly deft hand with character writing and while I don't think Zenos as a character can be entirely /fixed/ given that he started as little more than a force of nature more than an actual character, if anyone would salvage him enough to be at least tolerable it's her. My only worry is who is writing Zenos' character going forward... If it's not Ishikawa I don't have a lot of hope that he'll get any true amount of depth. Which is fine for most other stories but to precede and follow a villain like Emet Selch just makes Zenos all the more wanting as an antagonist.

[KageTokage]

I have more faith in Zenos as a potential villain if Ishikawa continues to helm the writing department. She has a fairly deft hand with character writing and while I don't think Zenos as a character can be entirely /fixed/ given that he started as little more than a force of nature more than an actual character, if anyone would salvage him enough to be at least tolerable it's her. My only worry is who is writing Zenos' character going forward... If it's not Ishikawa I don't have a lot of hope that he'll get any true amount of depth. Which is fine for most other stories but to precede and follow a villain like Emet Selch just makes Zenos all the more wanting as an antagonist.

Yeah...

Trying to force a one-dimensional villain back into relevance after we got a deeper one in Shadowbringers along with some insight into the true intentions of our long-time enemies has potential to fall flat on its face depending on how it's handled (Though i have mostly faith that they won't mess it up considering the track record).

Things are going to get even more complicated when considering that we're likely going to end up dealing with whoever comes out on top in the Garlemald power struggle as a new immediate threat in 6.x while the Ascians continue their scheming in the background.

[Rhomagus]

When comes to XIV villains, Zenos is far and away the most iconic. Nah.

Let's go through the list of villains:

Bahamut: he was a non-character, effectively a force of nature. That's actually the only thing good about Zenos he only has relevance to 1.0 players Or any Final Fantasy fan and those who did the Coils, which is content the vast majority of players have never touched. Best raid story. Also has more motivation than Zenos. Actually went through pain, hunted and imprisoned by Allagans. There's at least some adversity. Deeper than Zenos
Gaius van Baelsar: Appears in a grand total of 3 cutscenes in 2.0, and isn't even the final boss. Was one of the only few good things about 1.0. Had legit motivations. Enemy of my enemy is my friend. Deeper than Zenos.
Ultima Weapon: A non-character. Indeed. Literally a tool, a mechanism. Not a character.
Lahabrea: is a pretty forgettable generic evil guy. Only becomes somewhat interesting in retrospect once ShB dropped. Not even then really. Pretty cheesy use of Thancred too.
Thordan: is a generic evil JRPG pope. Nope. His arch is effectively a reference to the cold war. You don't stop going to war just because "war's bad mmmkay." Doesn't matter the truth. The truth remains that Nidhogg is an existential threat unwilling to listen to reason. The entire Heavensward story arch is effectively a metaphor for the Cold War and nuclear disarmament. WoL defeating Thordan was START 1. Hraesvelgr defeating Nidhogg was START 2.
Nidhogg: is a generic evil dragon. He has so little characterization that he borders on being a non-character. Wrong. Sister murdered. Also, since you list Emet below, Nidhogg's motivations are literally no different. The value they put on their own kin is rationalized through longevity / immortality (Nidhogg) or Completeness and Truth (Emet-Selch) if you think Emet is worthy, then Nidhogg is worthy by default.
Fordola: is a lieutenant to the big bad and is more heroic than evil.Still deeper than Zenos. Basically Stockholm Syndrome.
Yotsuyu: spiteful, psychotic woman who gets a sob story later on. At least she has a cool character design.Still deeper than Zenos. Same driving force as above.
Varis Zos Galvus: Doesn't do anything of note. Agreed. Exists only to show us how cold Zenos is, still don't care about either of them.
Ranjit: Forgettable. Best thing about him is the video by Fluffystuff. Oh Sheet! It's Ran-jit. Otherwise, is just generic anime enemy trash. Just as bad as Zenos but he at least has a nation to defend.
Vauthry: Served his purpose but isn't memorable. Gluttony and Pride. Two sins in one. Still deeper than Zenos.

The only memorable, good villains are Zenos nah and Emet Again, if Emet, then Nidhogg. Zenos is the most classically villainous Ya, if you think Snidely Whiplash is a "good" villain. How long do we have to wait for Zenos to tie Minifillia to some train tracks. Lame af. , has the most iconic character design If WoW shoulder pads are "iconic". Gaius was better., and has combat capabilities most adaptable for a fighter moveset Fordola and Ran-jit also fit this description, quite literally better than Zenos.. He has the most appearances of any villain ... and shouldn't., appearing across three expansions (probably four) and grows the least., and is treated as the WoL's arch-rival.... as an empty vessel to fight an empty vessel. Probably the only reason Zenos is written as he is, which is poorly.

The jury is still out on Elidibus. He has the potential to be just as memorable as Zenos and Emet. It looks like they're setting him up to be the ultimate jerk of the XIV setting and the WoL's timeless arch-enemy. We'll see.

ftfy in red

[Valic]

We fought him to the death in the Royal Menagerie. Also, how would "erased for a period of time" even work? Would NPCs be shocked at seeing you, claiming that they're seeing someone who is supposed to be dead? How exactly would the story progress, considering the player character is kind of the vessel through which people play this game? Would we go to some kind of Spirit World for an expansion/couple of patches before fighting our way back to the lands of the living?

Even if that'd happen, we'd likely still end up defeating Zenos afterwards, because I can't see SE going with a permanent bad ending. They couldn't even kill Y'shtola in Stormblood, there'd be a meltdown on the forums if they permanently killed off the WoL.

No, what we fought in the Menagerie was him testing out controlling a primal for himself... and he "offed himself" knowing what his power was capable of. And everything you mentioned and more could happen. As far as seeing a villai be defeated... you can argue that on any villain we've had in this whole game. Killing the WoL for what seems like permanently but ends up being temporary I find fascinating myself... But I digress. There's also something else to consider with knowing which characters they will kill. The character cannot have appeared in a previous optional questline, so we can count out a lot of the main protagonists... We're prolly never gonna lose thancred unless the end of Eden does otherwise. Same with Urianger now. Correct me if I'm wrong(as the forums are wont to do already), but I believe Y'shtola was in the beginning of Alexander's introduction as well. Point here being, if we're going to go the route "well that's boring because we're just gonna defeat them"... Then every villain is boring. I could see them using Zenos to absorb powerful entities and strike us down and have to find our fragments to become whole again or some bizarre concept we can't fathom.

[Rhomagus]

I would think that the reason some players do not see Zenos as a good villain is that they find absolutely no way to relate to him. He's not a tragic figure, he doesn't have a back-story of hardship and woe. He is not noble and true.

What is forgotten here? Zenos has a family with a peculiar background. The old emperor appears to have encouraged his upbringing (and don't tell me no one noticed as Zenos grew up). He appears to have some of the same characteristics as his grandfather, or else we would not have seen him past the 4.0 storyline.

Zenos is an enigma to the Warrior of Light. And that can be frustrating.

There's literally nothing enigmatic about Zenos, and that's the problem. His motivations are so basic it makes him effectively an empty shell opposition to the WoL. Basic antagonist, basic protagonist. Doesn't mean either are well written.

[KageTokage]

I kind of agree with the previous notions that Zenos is most likely just being used as a catalyst to turn Zodiark into an active threat despite the Rejoining not yet being complete.

How that ends up happening is anyone's guess, but I kind of hope he ends up becoming something beyond simply tempered and more an avatar of the primal so we can actually get his perspective on the events that have been transpiring.

No, what we fought in the Menagerie was him testing out controlling a primal for himself... and he "offed himself" knowing what his power was capable of.

I honestly never got that impression from any of his dialogue.

It sounded more like he was genuinely resigned to death and satisfied after having gotten his big battle with us and only realized he could cheat death like an Ascian after the fact then decided to make the most of it.

[monk-dps]

Something to consider for what I put in bold there... The only outcome is he loses against us?.... How are you so certain the writers are going to so easily just let him fall a 2nd time that easily after such buildup? Who says we don't lose to him?


Has anyone considered the possibility that WoL ISN'T god itself for a change? I know during HW we all remembered we weren't... seems like we've forgotten again. Seems like a good time for a good ol fashion beatdown where Zenos genuinely turns us into dust. If anything, I consider him making enemies is only going to make him stronger and stronger.

Itll be ham fisted if he won this time. Like we already beat him. TWICE! The only reason he even won in the first place was cause we wadnt high enough in levels. They cant reuse the same trick. If he was going to win and have it mattered he should've done it the first time. Otherwise as it is now, itll be stupid him winning now.

[Deusteele]

I enjoy Zenos because he's not another navel-gazing or self-aggrandizing narcissist with a god complex. He's a combat addict and knows it. Final Fantasy doesn't need another copy of Kekfa or Exdeath. Give us a villain that keeps coming at us even after we are far beyond them on a personal level. Show us a reason to pity them, not based on their misuse of power, but rather that they as a person never grew at all.

[Nezerius]

No, what we fought in the Menagerie was him testing out controlling a primal for himself... and he "offed himself" knowing what his power was capable of.

Except he wasn't just "testing out". The fight at the end of the Ala Mhigo dungeon proved that we could handle him at full power, so he fused with Shinryu thinking it'd give him the edge he needed to defeat us. Since we still manage to beat him up, he admits defeat, and then kills himself. His surprised reaction in the last cutscene of 4.3 indicates that his soul jumping to some random Resistance member wasn't something he planned.

And everything you mentioned and more could happen. As far as seeing a villai be defeated... you can argue that on any villain we've had in this whole game. Killing the WoL for what seems like permanently but ends up being temporary I find fascinating myself... But I digress.

So you pretty much agree with the point that you've been arguing against? He'll eventually lose against us.

I enjoy Zenos because he's not another navel-gazing or self-aggrandizing narcissist with a god complex. He's a combat addict and knows it. Final Fantasy doesn't need another copy of Kekfa or Exdeath. Give us a villain that keeps coming at us even after we are far beyond them on a personal level. Show us a reason to pity them, not based on their misuse of power, but rather that they as a person never grew at all.

So you basically want a stronger version of Grynewaht? Y'know, the Roegadyn who kept trying to kill us, to the point of comically being forced to retreat in a Team Rocket kind of way?

[Gemina]

So you basically want a stronger version of Grynewaht? Y'know, the Roegadyn who kept trying to kill us, to the point of comically being forced to retreat in a Team Rocket kind of way?

Even though I've been supporting Zenos, I can understand how such an opinion can be formulated about him. Grynewaht got his arse handed to him by the WoL and became obsessed with killing him/her for redemption, and well... we know how that ended for him, and that sounds awfully similar to our Crown Prince here.

However, Grynewaht's fate is exactly the kind of thing you do with his character; making him ultra powerful at the cost of extracting his own free will (kind of like The Mountain from Game of Thrones), and basically turning him into a tool to be used by far more prominent antagonists. To say that Zenos is along the lines of this kind of one dimensional character I feel is a bit extreme. He most certainly can't get pushed around, and made to look a fool in front of his peers like Grynewaht. While I can admit that Zenos is not a vastly multidimensional character like Emet, I also can't submit to him being that bad, or that poorly written. Zenos does entertain me.