The Reason Zenos.

[Gemina]

I think he should've killed you in that first fight. Then using the livestream you come back making the second fight mean more. But game mechanics ruined it I feel. It also doesnt help you see his level in both fights. Something they actually fixed in shadows with another villain.

I believe I've read this statement from you at least a couple of time, and I'm sorry, I'm having trouble making sense of it. If the WoL dies the story ends. At least from his/her perspective. If we were to come back via lifestream or whatever means, then it defeats whatever purpose there is to be gained by killing off the WoL, which isn't much.

It was shocking enough that the WoL was defeated so easily in the first fight. She/he most certainly didn't need to get killed to solidify Zenos as a good villain. Some of this stuff I see being tossed around like "we lost that fight because Zenos was level 70, of course we couldn't do anything to him." I find to be completely redundant, and bears no gravity on the situation whatsoever. If you were reading that fight out of a book, it wouldn't talk about level discrepancies. All you would know is Eorzea's resident baddass is their champion for a reason, and he/she couldn't do anything to stop Zenos. This was important to establish just how strong he is. The WoL lost that fight, badly; because it was scripted to be that way. Nothing more. Nothing less. There are still heavy role-playing elements to this game.

Also, ask any military general if retreat counts as a defeat, and that general will tell you, "EFF YEAH IT DOES!" Battles wins and losses are actually tracked, and I would say the majority of the ones combatants have in their win column is a result of a retreat. Zenos lost in Ala Mhigo.

[MoofiaBossVal]

ask any military general if retreat counts as a defeat, and that general will tell you, "EFF YEAH IT DOES!" Battles wins and losses are actually tracked, and I would say the majority of the ones combatants have in their win column is a result of a retreat. Zenos lost in Ala Mhigo.

See, I think that's what rubs a lot of people the wrong. I like Zenos, but "defeating" him and "liberating" Ala Mhigo doesn't feel satisfying when its predicated on the antagonist... not even trying to stop you. At no point does he sally out from the castle to try to retake ground. At no point does he send troops to attack the Alliance's supply lines from the back. He doesn't send reinforcements as the protagonists inch closer and closer to the castle. And then when you do beat him, it feels like he doesn't really care. He goes "oh well, you're the strongest, I have no reason to live, I'll kill myself now".

I think there is a disconnect in how the audience views Zenos. The story is treating him as the antagonist the hero must overcome, but we're not really given a reason to view him as an antagonist, nor a challenge for the hero to overcome. As stated before, he doesn't really antagonize the hero when he could have, and he only ever directly blocks the hero's progress once. It's like we're being told he is the antagonist, but everything we've seen him do doesn't make him scary.

[Gemina]

See, I think that's what rubs a lot of people the wrong. I like Zenos, but "defeating" him and "liberating" Ala Mhigo doesn't feel satisfying when its predicated on the antagonist... not even trying to stop you. At no point does he sally out from the castle to try to retake ground. At no point does he send troops to attack the Alliance's supply lines from the back. He doesn't send reinforcements as the protagonists inch closer and closer to the castle. And then when you do beat him, it feels like he doesn't really care. He goes "oh well, you're the strongest, I have no reason to live, I'll kill myself now".

I think there is a disconnect in how the audience views Zenos. The story is treating him as the antagonist the hero must overcome, but we're not really given a reason to view him as an antagonist, nor a challenge for the hero to overcome. As stated before, he doesn't really antagonize the hero when he could have, and he only ever directly blocks the hero's progress once. It's like we're being told he is the antagonist, but everything we've seen him do doesn't make him scary.

I won't argue that Zenos doesn't really antagonize the WoL, and even brought it up myself. I like the guy, and support him as an antagonist but also recognize there has been some fundamental errors when developing him as a villain. However, part of the disconnect I feel stems from an expectation of Zenos to be a kind of villain he is not. As an example, you brought up why he does not put more effort in to stop the alliance, but character designed to be a wrecking ball doesn't really have a need for pragmatism, nor has he shown anything that this virtue is a part of his character. Varis expressed the same disappointment in Zenos and considered him to be just a monster, so the game acknowledges this very same complaint about Zenos, which would mean it is intentional.

The battle over the Royal Menagerie is something I think is being misinterpreted. Zenos might have mortally wounded himself, but he was already dying from his injuries from the battle. Content at this point, he was more than willing to resign to death and was just hastening the process. I think much of what was felt about that was expressed through Lyse when she tried to stop him. Again I will point to some fundamental errors in his writing. I personally, would much rather that we received audio cues of his heart slowing, and then it just stops and he falls. Merging with Shinryu and the self inflicted wound were really bad decisions in Zenos' writing that I feel cheated us from the thrill of victory over him.

I think the other part of the disconnect comes from the lack of impact Zenos has made in the amount of time he has been in the game. Not the amount of antagonism shown towards the WoL, but actual impact. Some of this though I fault towards how SB was written and doubling up on the liberation efforts. I won't say that sending Zenos on a solo quest to reunite soul with body was ingenious writing, but it definitely served to keep the guy around longer, and he wasn't really capable of antagonizing the WoL in this state.

In short, Zenos might have got his body back, but he is still in this kind of limbo. It appears to be intentional as the character's themselves aren't quite sure what to make of Zenos' recent actions. However, the "My friend, my enemy" can't sustain him for very long and hopefully 5.2 will bring more answers. Zenos still remains a different villain than we previously had in FFXIV. Refreshing for some; tiresome for others.

[Valic]

Looked more like he finally got the thrill he wanted, finding someone who could defeat him. Knowing how long it took him to find someone like that, he likely realised that this was a once in a lifetime thing, and therefore didn't feel the need to keep on going, therefore killed himself.

But since you're such a fan of Zenos, I can't see you admitting that view.


That's certainly possible. It's also possible that Elidibus thought the sudden appearance of Zenos messed up his plans so much (along with the death of another original Ascian) that he decided to go back to the drawing board. We won't know for sure unless the MSQ starts giving some more information on it.


Technically, Omega survived. Unrelated to Zenos, but thought I'd point that out.



They had the entirety of Stormblood to "give the fker a chance", and yet they didn't do anything with him. He went from "Must hunt WoL" before killing himself, to "Must hunt WoL" after getting his body back. They could cut out every single post-SB MSQ cutscene involving his soul journey (minus the one where he gets his body back), and it wouldn't change his character development.

We killed Omega though?

[Kallera]

I won't argue that Zenos doesn't really antagonize the WoL, and even brought it up myself. I like the guy, and support him as an antagonist but also recognize there has been some fundamental errors when developing him as a villain. However, part of the disconnect I feel stems from an expectation of Zenos to be a kind of villain he is not. As an example, you brought up why he does not put more effort in to stop the alliance, but character designed to be a wrecking ball doesn't really have a need for pragmatism, nor has he shown anything that this virtue is a part of his character. Varis expressed the same disappointment in Zenos and considered him to be just a monster, so the game acknowledges this very same complaint about Zenos, which would mean it is intentional.

The battle over the Royal Menagerie is something I think is being misinterpreted. Zenos might have mortally wounded himself, but he was already dying from his injuries from the battle. Content at this point, he was more than willing to resign to death and was just hastening the process. I think much of what was felt about that was expressed through Lyse when she tried to stop him. Again I will point to some fundamental errors in his writing. I personally, would much rather that we received audio cues of his heart slowing, and then it just stops and he falls. Merging with Shinryu and the self inflicted wound were really bad decisions in Zenos' writing that I feel cheated us from the thrill of victory over him.

I think the other part of the disconnect comes from the lack of impact Zenos has made in the amount of time he has been in the game. Not the amount of antagonism shown towards the WoL, but actual impact. Some of this though I fault towards how SB was written and doubling up on the liberation efforts. I won't say that sending Zenos on a solo quest to reunite soul with body was ingenious writing, but it definitely served to keep the guy around longer, and he wasn't really capable of antagonizing the WoL in this state.

In short, Zenos might have got his body back, but he is still in this kind of limbo. It appears to be intentional as the character's themselves aren't quite sure what to make of Zenos' recent actions. However, the "My friend, my enemy" can't sustain him for very long and hopefully 5.2 will bring more answers. Zenos still remains a different villain than we previously had in FFXIV. Refreshing for some; tiresome for others.

What sort of wrecking ball is he if he is only swinging in the enemies direction? Offstage, we are told he is a monster, and while he can go toe to toe with characters and yawn at the same time, what has he accomplished on screen? The deaths of a few nameless fodder on the alliance and...the loss of his legion, two provinces he controlled, slaying the bloody Emperor of Garlemald, and causing the last true Ascian to flee. All while musing about taking the yet chained and weakened Zodiark for a spin. And I may be talking meta at this point, but he is going to take Zodiark and joyride it into the implacable wall that is the primal killing protagonist.

See the problem?

[Crushnight]

We killed Omega though?

We beat Omega not kill, it transfered its data into the OMG that is accompanied by Alpha so it can continue to learn about the people and the world, it will eventually seek to get a new body but that probably take eons.

This confirmation is in the tales of series for Shadowbringers, the one about the 8th Calamity.

[Gemina]

What sort of wrecking ball is he if he is only swinging in the enemies direction? Offstage, we are told he is a monster, and while he can go toe to toe with characters and yawn at the same time, what has he accomplished on screen? The deaths of a few nameless fodder on the alliance and...the loss of his legion, two provinces he controlled, slaying the bloody Emperor of Garlemald, and causing the last true Ascian to flee. All while musing about taking the yet chained and weakened Zodiark for a spin. And I may be talking meta at this point, but he is going to take Zodiark and joyride it into the implacable wall that is the primal killing protagonist.

See the problem?

That's pretty much the definition of a wrecking ball character. It simply destroys in whichever direction it is swung. Zenos doing things like killing the emperor, stopping black rose, and plunging Garlemald into civil war might work in the favor of the alliance, but they are still extremely destructive deeds. You have to remember that there are good people in Garlemald, and they are suffering extensively right now.

The problems I see, I've already pointed out.

[monk-dps]

The Zeno thing.

The reason why I bring up the gameplay part of that is because one.. it's playable and two seeing his level is the reason we lose.. besides plot. It's there and you can see it, so it kindof can't be unseen. It's not like a book where all you do is read it, we played that section. It was badly written and was a waste of time. THey have gotten better at it, but Zenos still fails that. Besides that, both his last fights were lackluster at best. So not only does his story fail to give the player any kindof oof, the fights fail on that front too. Look at how Emet was designed and read thur out shadows. He works because he was understood and well written. I feel like Zenos wasn't.

We're told Zenos is powerful, we're told he's this unbeatable person... we don't feel any of that. The biggest reason why I don't let go of that reason is because we don't learn some trick to overcome Zenos, we don't grow in lore, heck there's not even a training section. The only difference is that oh look we're 70 now and he's a dungeon boss. Nothing in lore was gained from 63 to 70 other than levels. If he atleast did more to the player character in the first fight other than making us do the winded emote it'll be different. Death doesn't have to mean gameover for us.. we're playing a video game. We could've gotten a cool solo dungeon of us fighting to come back to life and within that showing one of the reasons the WOL is the WOL. It'll gave us a thing to stand out from other people, and a reason for Zenos to take note. Well other then plot reasons anyway. But this is just my take.

[Valic]

We beat Omega not kill, it transfered its data into the OMG that is accompanied by Alpha so it can continue to learn about the people and the world, it will eventually seek to get a new body but that probably take eons.

This confirmation is in the tales of series for Shadowbringers, the one about the 8th Calamity.

Huh.... Ya know I thought that was the case but just assumed it was coincidence as a toy thing. Glad they confirmed it, I should prolly read those.

[Bongaboi]

I got a feeling we're going to silence Elidibus soon. Zephiroth-er, Zenos will be later.