The Reason Zenos.

[Nezerius]

Even though I've been supporting Zenos, I can understand how such an opinion can be formulated about him. Grynewaht got his arse handed to him by the WoL and became obsessed with killing him/her for redemption, and well... we know how that ended for him, and that sounds awfully similar to our Crown Prince here.

However, Grynewaht's fate is exactly the kind of thing you do with his character; making him ultra powerful at the cost of extracting his own free will (kind of like The Mountain from Game of Thrones), and basically turning him into a tool to be used by far more prominent antagonists. To say that Zenos is along the lines of this kind of one dimensional character I feel is a bit extreme. He most certainly can't get pushed around, and made to look a fool in front of his peers like Grynewaht. While I can admit that Zenos is not a vastly multidimensional character like Emet, I also can't submit to him being that bad, or that poorly written. Zenos does entertain me.

Not saying that Zenos is currently as simple of a character as Grynewaht, since Grynewaht was mostly just comedy-relief-turned-video-game-reference (Doomguy in Doma Castle), but I also wouldn't be surprised if Zenos ends up getting baited into becoming a pawn of Zodiark, considering how the story is currently progressing. This is due to the fact that his only objective is to become stronger so he can fight the WoL. His character needs a lot more depth to not eventually turn into a character that just keeps on coming back after getting defeated.

[Gemina]

Not saying that Zenos is currently as simple of a character as Grynewaht, since Grynewaht was mostly just comedy-relief-turned-video-game-reference (Doomguy in Doma Castle), but I also wouldn't be surprised if Zenos ends up getting baited into becoming a pawn of Zodiark, considering how the story is currently progressing. This is due to the fact that his only objective is to become stronger so he can fight the WoL. His character needs a lot more depth to not eventually turn into a character that just keeps on coming back after getting defeated.

I've seen it happen in other fiction. Antagonist gets too strong, or there is some other reason the writer(s) get themselves boxed in a corner and the only way to take him out is to make him a puppet. Madara in Naruto quickly comes to mind. I really hope they don't do that with Zenos, but the quasi link between him and Zodiark seems all but certain.

From my perspective, it seems they are doing a kind of Neo/Agent Smith thing with the WoL and Zenos, where each are continuously getting more and more powerful. I think Zenos acknowledges this and is crazy super stoked about two mortals ascending to godhood, and then battling over the fate of an entire star. IOW, I think Zenos is quite similar to an Ascian in many ways including a desire to recreate the past. As a war monger though, he would seek to recreate the battle between Zodiark and Hydaelyn that split the star into shards in the first place.

That seems simple enough, and more than sufficient to wet my beak. I am just not sure how Zodiark will fit into that without eliminating his take on things, which I think many players want to know. That's kind of what really worries me about Zenos.

[MoofiaBossVal]

That seems simple enough, and more than sufficient to wet my beak. I am just not sure how Zodiark will fit into that without eliminating his take on things, which I think many players want to know. That's kind of what really worries me about Zenos.

So far, we already have two contenders for the role of the final antagonist of the story: Elidibus and Zenos, who are thematic counterparts to the WoL. Elidibus was once a colleague of the WoL, who eventually became a spiteful old man and leader of the big bad ensemble, who is now trying to kill his friend. Zenos is the WoL's rival, both pushing boundaries and performing feats thought to be impossible. Zodiark is... what? Some big bad doom summon/creature/demon thing of pure evil? I have no investment in Zodiark as a character, and I'm not sure how he could be brought in at the last moment and made into a character more worthy of the final antagonist role than Elidibus or Zenos.

I can see either Elidibus or Zenos becoming the avatar of Zodiark, but retaining their personalities. Elidibus is supposed to be the emissary of Zodiark, and Zenos wants Zodiark's power, so in the end either can work. So long as they don't become a brand new character upon taking Zodiark's power into their bodies.

[Valic]

I kind of agree with the previous notions that Zenos is most likely just being used as a catalyst to turn Zodiark into an active threat despite the Rejoining not yet being complete.

How that ends up happening is anyone's guess, but I kind of hope he ends up becoming something beyond simply tempered and more an avatar of the primal so we can actually get his perspective on the events that have been transpiring.



I honestly never got that impression from any of his dialogue.

It sounded more like he was genuinely resigned to death and satisfied after having gotten his big battle with us and only realized he could cheat death like an Ascian after the fact then decided to make the most of it.

Considering how he talks about us as if we're pawns in a grand theater.... While I did fall for it, later down the line I see he's only just getting started and everything we'd done was merely testing grounds to him. That's what I gauged from it all though anyways.

Itll be ham fisted if he won this time. Like we already beat him. TWICE! The only reason he even won in the first place was cause we wadnt high enough in levels. They cant reuse the same trick. If he was going to win and have it mattered he should've done it the first time. Otherwise as it is now, itll be stupid him winning now.

Twice? I only recall once in the ending of SB tbh. Why would he expend all of his energy when there's the possibility for so much more? He's beaten us twice just as well, and that was before the "final fight" when we actually learned how to step up. He wasn't using his full power until possibly the Shinryu fight and even then he was just using a primal like a puppet.

Except he wasn't just "testing out". The fight at the end of the Ala Mhigo dungeon proved that we could handle him at full power, so he fused with Shinryu thinking it'd give him the edge he needed to defeat us. Since we still manage to beat him up, he admits defeat, and then kills himself. His surprised reaction in the last cutscene of 4.3 indicates that his soul jumping to some random Resistance member wasn't something he planned.


So you pretty much agree with the point that you've been arguing against? He'll eventually lose against us.


So you basically want a stronger version of Grynewaht? Y'know, the Roegadyn who kept trying to kill us, to the point of comically being forced to retreat in a Team Rocket kind of way?

I like you think he used his full power. He didn't and never clarified he did. He fused with Shinryu, not to give him any edge... He never once admitted defeat to us either even when he "died". He literally asked us if we'd kill the primal or bind or etc so on. He did not NEED Shinryu, he wanted to test the true power of his might and the will of a god and go beyond that vs the godslayer. While he may not have planned to come back how he did, he did and he's better for it. We defeat him though as the primal he was, not truly him as himself by ourselves. We even were shown just how damned hard it was at the end of Ghymlet Dark but that was under control of another character even.... And even then when given the chance for Zenos to go against ElidiZenos, Eldidibus yeeted out cuz he knew he'd lose. Especially because Zenos is starting to understand just how powerful he CAN be, beyond his already godly power. He's also more skilled than Elidibus imo, not just using brute strength magic but actually smart when it comes to destroying someone or getting what he wants. He's vindictive if that wasn't already obvious with the death of his father and claiming his body back after taking several bodies prior.

As far as Grynewaht goes... Someone already mentioned he was more of comedy relief than anything. He's a bit of a different story, he isn't strong, or willed to get stronger. He doesn't have any true pride and he thinks more weapons and machines can fell a hero. Grynewaht is a very basic level villain, he wants a better job placement and the only way to do it is through X. He doesn't complete X, he fails, he fails, and fails again, but he doesn't learn anything from it or go forward coming back any stronger or better for it. If anything, it only became "dark" once we saw him at the end of that dungeon and he gave up all of his humanity to become a mutant. Zenos isn't exactly... that base or stupid. He doesn't have much humanity to begin with, he's a sociopath to a degree and wants for a higher feeling than such base motives as country and rewards... material practices and promotions. What does any of that mean when one opens their eyes to the boarders of existence? The stars themselves, life, creation, all of it. Grynewaht is a moron, always was, and died being one through sheer dumbfounded bloodlust, revenge, and pettiness. Zenos isn't just bent on us for revenge sake or wanting to kill because he needs to to ascend for someone else or do something to accomplish it. It's the fight itself that promotes his purpose and thought. He WANTS to fight us with both of us at our most powerful. He WANTS to see the outcome of this given his newfound knowledge and ability. There's no requirement or need to, it's all as simple as becoming the godliest figure you possibly can, beyond any mortal coil and fight the universe's most powerful champion and prove the testament of what we are.

In the end... not every ending has to be this great empathetic tragedy like we get with Emet Selch or the warriors of darkness. They're nice, but they don't make "true" evil villains. The reason we like Emet is rather for the amount of difference we have between one another that paints him as a villain. In the end, he isn't the "I feel like killing because muahahaha". He never was, he was a hero to his people and wanted to stay that, he failed and the goal he had in mind to us comes across as evil. He's as much a villain as is a ghost trapped in your house that doesn't wanna be there. He's not groaning and moaning necessarily because he wants to, but because he had no choice to. Same case with Emet, he carried on the legacies of Ascians and the original star that was prior to the sundering. Putting at stake everything, even lives if he had to in order to bring back life and restore everything he loved. We're even given the same question from Alphinaud... Would we do the same? It'd make us a villain too if we did, but we wouldn't be the type to just do malicious things for our own self satisfaction or gain... (aka, kill cuz HECK YEH KILLING). I appreciate Emet Selch and well written "villains" but imo, this game needs to end with a true evil villain. Not just someone we empathize with and regret having to fight... Someone who is genuinely the bad guy through and through without a doubt and without us, everyone is doomed before them. I don't mean doomed for some greater purpose of sacrifice or doomed to slavery for another country or doomed to become another entity... I mean genuine life/reality extinction level.

[monk-dps]

"Twice? I only recall once in the ending of SB tbh. Why would he expend all of his energy when there's the possibility for so much more? He's beaten us twice just as well, and that was before the "final fight" when we actually learned how to step up. He wasn't using his full power until possibly the Shinryu fight and even then he was just using a primal like a puppet."

yes twice. You forget we creamed his ass in the 70 dungeon before the final fight. And no. Stop counting those two fights he -won- he only won cause we wasnt level 70. The game shows you his level at the first fight. It fails. He's only there or unbeatable because the game says so. Once we get to him he's the easiest fight of all time. He fails. And he's also lame and brings nothing to the table. :c

It's fine if you like zenos. But in my honest opinion he was and is badly designed. He just comes off as trying too hard and it fails. Nigghog was a better "kill everything" villain and he had a good plot. Well... better then the " I wanna be a wanna be edge lord arc." Zenos is. It's like they wanted to remake ff7 in xiv and out came zenos. A clone of another overrated villain.

[Nezerius]

I like you think he used his full power. He didn't and never clarified he did. He fused with Shinryu, not to give him any edge... He never once admitted defeat to us either even when he "died". He literally asked us if we'd kill the primal or bind or etc so on. He did not NEED Shinryu, he wanted to test the true power of his might and the will of a god and go beyond that vs the godslayer. While he may not have planned to come back how he did, he did and he's better for it. We defeat him though as the primal he was, not truly him as himself by ourselves.

His first line of text, after the Shinryu fight, literally states that "The hunter has indeed become the hunted." before sayings his farewell to "My first friend. My enemy"
He died. He didn't have a plan on souljumping to a different corpse. He straight out killed himself because his own power combined with Shinryu wasn't enough to defeat his target. The fact that you keep using "died", and seem convinced that killing himself was all part of some kind of master plan just shows how much you seem to have forgotten about the Stormblood MSQ. I'd suggest rewatching the cutscenes again.

Oh, and his question on if we were to kill or bind the primal was Zenos asking about the WoL's knowledge about the Echo.

We even were shown just how damned hard it was at the end of Ghymlet Dark but that was under control of another character even.... And even then when given the chance for Zenos to go against ElidiZenos, Eldidibus yeeted out cuz he knew he'd lose. Especially because Zenos is starting to understand just how powerful he CAN be, beyond his already godly power. He's also more skilled than Elidibus imo, not just using brute strength magic but actually smart when it comes to destroying someone or getting what he wants. He's vindictive if that wasn't already obvious with the death of his father and claiming his body back after taking several bodies prior.

We don't know why exactly Elidibus gave up Zenos' body as quickly as he did. So anything regarding that is pure speculation.

In the end... not every ending has to be this great empathetic tragedy like we get with Emet Selch or the warriors of darkness. They're nice, but they don't make "true" evil villains.

And how exactly does this change the fact that we'd still end up beating Zenos in the end?

Y'know, the thing you were arguing against? The fact that the only outcome would be him losing against us? Or do you still believe that Zenos is going to permanently defeat us?

[Valic]

"Twice? I only recall once in the ending of SB tbh. Why would he expend all of his energy when there's the possibility for so much more? He's beaten us twice just as well, and that was before the "final fight" when we actually learned how to step up. He wasn't using his full power until possibly the Shinryu fight and even then he was just using a primal like a puppet."

yes twice. You forget we creamed his ass in the 70 dungeon before the final fight. And no. Stop counting those two fights he -won- he only won cause we wasnt level 70. The game shows you his level at the first fight. It fails. He's only there or unbeatable because the game says so. Once we get to him he's the easiest fight of all time. He fails. And he's also lame and brings nothing to the table. :c

It's fine if you like zenos. But in my honest opinion he was and is badly designed. He just comes off as trying too hard and it fails. Nigghog was a better "kill everything" villain and he had a good plot. Well... better then the " I wanna be a wanna be edge lord arc." Zenos is. It's like they wanted to remake ff7 in xiv and out came zenos. A clone of another overrated villain.

No, he backed off during it. There was no clear sign of defeat there. Deciding to stop a battle and move elsewhere to continue fighting does not mean "you win". Only by game mechanics is that even a thing. If you're going by the game's logic of how we didn't get beaten earlier on, you can't say the same for the dungeon we ran either. Nidhogg's plot was "you killed my fam, I'ma make you suffer" and the entire plot of a previous FF already done. He practically was an edge lord the entire time, especially when he took over Estinien lol. GO FIGURE THE FAN GAME OF ALL FF'S WANTS TO MAKE SIMILAR IDEAS FROM OTHER FF'S???? HUH.

His first line of text, after the Shinryu fight, literally states that "The hunter has indeed become the hunted." before sayings his farewell to "My first friend. My enemy"
He died. He didn't have a plan on souljumping to a different corpse. He straight out killed himself because his own power combined with Shinryu wasn't enough to defeat his target. The fact that you keep using "died", and seem convinced that killing himself was all part of some kind of master plan just shows how much you seem to have forgotten about the Stormblood MSQ. I'd suggest rewatching the cutscenes again.

Oh, and his question on if we were to kill or bind the primal was Zenos asking about the WoL's knowledge about the Echo.


We don't know why exactly Elidibus gave up Zenos' body as quickly as he did. So anything regarding that is pure speculation.


And how exactly does this change the fact that we'd still end up beating Zenos in the end?

Y'know, the thing you were arguing against? The fact that the only outcome would be him losing against us? Or do you still believe that Zenos is going to permanently defeat us?

He admitted WoL has become stronger than him yes. Pretty sure he killed himself because he considered his part done at the time though. I haven't forgotten about that, the implication of death means they become without life, a body becomes a corpse. He became that ONCE so far. After we defeated him taking over Shinryu.

I mean, Elidibus specifically said something along the lines of Zenos coming around being unexpected. I'm almost positive Elidibus noped out understanding that he may very well be at his match if not just lose and he's the probably last remaining ascian left. He'd rather not take the chance.

And to your last question, it doesn't. But everyone is using "but we know we're gonna beat them" as their go-to for why Zenos is a bad villain... Meanwhile literally every villain we've faced thus far has had the exact same fate. so you could say all of them are bad for the same reason then. This is the first villain we've had in FFIV that has actually survived beyond death that wasn't an ascian (even though he's bordering becoming one). Why don't we wait and see what Zenos has in store and give him some room to be able to become something worthy rather than just killing off another villain as expected early. If there was anything that disappointed me in ShB, it was that Emet Selch seemed like he could've been a long term villain and well.... wasn't.

My belief is that Zenos is like as many have said, will have some form of interaction with Zodiark, and either way whoever ends out on top (my hope is on Zenos as again, I find him a perfect candidate for the final villain)....Will end up "defeating" the WoL in more than just a "got knocked down" sense like we have been in the past. Rather, in such a way that sets us back and makes people believe we're absolutely dead this time. Something to note, I never once said permanent.

TL;DR: drop this thread already so the creators/writers don't write up another villain out of thin air that had no relevance from these last 4 expansions(and will likely end up just being another end expansion villain) all because people on the forums whined about Zenos. Give the fker a chance now that things are getting spicy.

Also TL;DR: to be blunt, I disagree and find Zenos a great character to continue in the plot. No changing my opinion on the matter and at this rate I can see everyone's as stubborn as I am so ... Done I guess?

[Nezerius]

He admitted WoL has become stronger than him yes. Pretty sure he killed himself because he considered his part done at the time though. I haven't forgotten about that, the implication of death means they become without life, a body becomes a corpse. He became that ONCE so far. After we defeated him taking over Shinryu.

Looked more like he finally got the thrill he wanted, finding someone who could defeat him. Knowing how long it took him to find someone like that, he likely realised that this was a once in a lifetime thing, and therefore didn't feel the need to keep on going, therefore killed himself.

But since you're such a fan of Zenos, I can't see you admitting that view.

I mean, Elidibus specifically said something along the lines of Zenos coming around being unexpected. I'm almost positive Elidibus noped out understanding that he may very well be at his match if not just lose and he's the probably last remaining ascian left. He'd rather not take the chance.

That's certainly possible. It's also possible that Elidibus thought the sudden appearance of Zenos messed up his plans so much (along with the death of another original Ascian) that he decided to go back to the drawing board. We won't know for sure unless the MSQ starts giving some more information on it.

This is the first villain we've had in FFIV that has actually survived beyond death that wasn't an ascian (even though he's bordering becoming one).

Technically, Omega survived. Unrelated to Zenos, but thought I'd point that out.

TL;DR: drop this thread already so the creators/writers don't write up another villain out of thin air that had no relevance from these last 4 expansions(and will likely end up just being another end expansion villain) all because people on the forums whined about Zenos. Give the fker a chance now that things are getting spicy.

Also TL;DR: to be blunt, I disagree and find Zenos a great character to continue in the plot. No changing my opinion on the matter and at this rate I can see everyone's as stubborn as I am so ... Done I guess?

They had the entirety of Stormblood to "give the fker a chance", and yet they didn't do anything with him. He went from "Must hunt WoL" before killing himself, to "Must hunt WoL" after getting his body back. They could cut out every single post-SB MSQ cutscene involving his soul journey (minus the one where he gets his body back), and it wouldn't change his character development.

[Jennah]

Technically, Omega survived. Unrelated to Zenos, but thought I'd point that out.

Also Gaius. And Nero. And the Voidwalker. And the Cloud of Darkness. And a bunch that were just testing us, like Midgarsormr, and Hrasevalgr, and Alexander. And pretty much none of the primals were destroyed, just unsummoned for a bit.

Our track record's actually not that great, versus enemies capable of speech.

[monk-dps]

"No, he backed off during it. There was no clear sign of defeat there. Deciding to stop a battle and move elsewhere to continue fighting does not mean "you win". Only by game mechanics is that even a thing. If you're going by the game's logic of how we didn't get beaten earlier on, you can't say the same for the dungeon we ran either. Nidhogg's plot was "you killed my fam, I'ma make you suffer" and the entire plot of a previous FF already done. He practically was an edge lord the entire time, especially when he took over Estinien lol. GO FIGURE THE FAN GAME OF ALL FF'S WANTS TO MAKE SIMILAR IDEAS FROM OTHER FF'S???? HUH."

So by your logic he never beat us then. It was all game mechanics. Which is my point. And pointing out how nigghog is a bad villain doesn't change the fact zenos is even worse. I think even I pointed out nigghog isnt good, but he's already better than zenos. He at least left more of an impression then zenos I feel. Both are bad. Nigghog just isnt crashing other plots and is dead completely so he's better by default. Zenos could've left a better mark if he was written better, but his whole thing was under cooked. One he was killed off to soon I feel, his -wins- were badly designed. I think he should've killed you in that first fight. Then using the livestream you come back making the second fight mean more. But game mechanics ruined it I feel. It also doesnt help you see his level in both fights. Something they actually fixed in shadows with another villain.