Tank Mitigation vs Tank DPS.

[Nedkel]

Yeah, no.
You're not looking at how the stats on gear actually works, as has been pointed out for pages.
You're wrong, and doubling down on being wrong.
Tenacitys best use is one overmeld if the +20 will let you hit a .1% breakpoint. Otherwise it's not as valuable.
You arent getting healed differently taking barely noticable less damage. Eoslene is still going to hug you the same way she always does. You're getting the same heal after a tankbuster you always are. You're getting adlo or bene at the same time you otherwise would be, because that's when they come off CD. Your regen / faerielove ticks are still ticking the same as they ever would be.
All you're doing is less damage.
14 is not other MMO's. Bulking your tank stats up in a game where people dont/cant vary heal potency does next to nothing, and does LESS than ot did when we didnt have permanent tank mitigation.
I want tenacity to be a viable option. It just isnt, because 14 doesnt work that way.

This works that way if you assume that your healer is not playing properly and overheals you all the time, which is petty thing to say, because it does not happen often.
Your healer is a variable here, he is able to adjust and make it working as intended.
On the other hand you are relying your damage on a RNG factor, and thinking an average increase of 1%-2% will have any significant impact on the number is quite optimistic.

This value is in a bracket of measurement error, because there are three random variables when you do your damage, you could get completely different outcomes when playing with DH. This bonus has to proc at least 1 time per 6 damage ticks in order to deliver as much bonus damage as tenacity does, and 1 time per 5 in order to be slightly ahead.
The amount you get from melds is 24% rate if you put all 24 DH melds in 460-470 ilvl equipment.
You shouldnt take random procs for granted, you may as well do less damage than tenacity tank since his damage is less rng than yours.

[Ultimatecalibur]

Snip

You misunderstood.

The minimized Tenacity i470 build had 3123 Crit, 2342 Det, 1820 DHit, 1180 Ten and 740 SkS. This lead to a calculated average DpS of 8877.26 with a mitigation from Tenacity of 2.4%.

The maximized Tenacity i470 build had 1806 Crit, 2151 Det, 1160 DHit, 3184 Ten and 783 SkS. This lead to a calculated average DpS of 8646.41 with a mitigation from Tenacity of 8.4%.

[Barraind]

Your healer is a variable here, he is able to adjust and make it working as intended.

Yeah, thats not how healing and damage taken actually works though.

A hit that does 160k pre-mitigation will do 128k to a tank. It will do 89.8k to a tank that uses a cooldown. It will do 85.1k to a tank that has stacked tenacity.

The heal(s) landing after this highly telegraphed hit is going to heal me for the same. Its going to be ~25k for a noncrit Cure2 + ~25k for a noncrit Tetra/solace regardless of the dmage I take. Or its going to be a bene for full. Or its going to have been shielded for 20k from beni / scholar shields.

Its never going to result in you casting a different heal, because there is no different combination of heals for 5% less. Its not going to result in you NOT casting a heal, because the difference in damage is less than 5%.


If you want to look solely at small things that hit for smaller amounts, and not anything standing there by itself with things you know you have to press buttons for, one tank is going to be taking 64% incoming damage, super tenacity tank is going to be taking 60.4% incoming damage.

Your tank needs to be taking 700k damage pre mitigation before this means you have to cast/activate ONE FEWER 700 potency heal. (Cure 2, solace, tetra, lustrate, Bene2, ED) Thats a TERRIBLE practical return. This is in no way a good trade for anything you might be giving up.

Tenacity from gear and melding is roughly one sixth of the value of pressing a 20% cooldown.

Its worse if a paladin has anything + sheltron. That puts it to 850,000 pre mitigation incoming damage before you save ONE heal.

Tenacity is really, really bad,

[RareItems]

You misunderstood.

The minimized Tenacity i470 build had 3123 Crit, 2342 Det, 1820 DHit, 1180 Ten and 740 SkS. This lead to a calculated average DpS of 8877.26 with a mitigation from Tenacity of 2.4%.

The maximized Tenacity i470 build had 1806 Crit, 2151 Det, 1160 DHit, 3184 Ten and 783 SkS. This lead to a calculated average DpS of 8646.41 with a mitigation from Tenacity of 8.4%.

Wrong. 3184 Tenacity gives you 9.64 Damage increase/Mitigation and Self Heal. The fact that you guys can't even do the calculations right is why your all just blinded with the Direct Hit Meta.

You guys even added Direct Hit on the "Maximized Tenacity" build. Why would someone who maximizes Tenacity waste Direct Hit on any of his slots. The Mnimized Tenacity build also has almost 200 more stat points. Clearly a skewed calculation.

I cringe everytime i see a tank with full direct hit melds on. It pretty much tells me:

1.) Healers are going to be healing more and dpsing less to compensate

2.) The other tank is going to have spam Intervention/Cover/Reprisal/Clemency on that DH Tank therefore dealing less damage than the DH tank.

3.) The DH tank is obviously parsing and using 3rd party apps so don't mess up or here comes the Elitist rampage on chat.

[Kaedan]

Current 5.0 stat weights:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tat_intervals/

Umm, those are not stat weights. In fact, at the very beginning of the post in BOLD LETTERS he states they are not stat weights. They are simply stat intervals.

[RareItems]

Umm, those are not stat weights. In fact, at the very beginning of the post in BOLD LETTERS he states they are not stat weights. They are simply stat intervals.

Aren't you the guy who said "I've seen hundreds of ppl clearing savage Eden with no materia on their armor" ? I'm still waiting for video proof of that happening lol.

[Barraind]

Wrong. 3184 Tenacity gives you 9.64 Damage increase/Mitigation and Self Heal. The fact that you guys can't even do the calculations right

3245 tenacity (which is the max you can get in that ilvl gear, btw) is +2895 Tenacity. The base is not counted. 2895 tenacity is 87 tenacity breakpoints. This is 8.7% damage and damage reduction. Everything between one breakpont and another breakpoint is lost to truncation.

You guys even added Direct Hit on the "Maximized Tenacity" build. Why would someone who maximizes Tenacity waste Direct Hit on any of his slots.

.. because you cant meld tenacity onto gear beyond that of its highest native secondary stat and you would thus have no melds on 2 pieces and only partial melds on others? Because we're actually trying to maximize the awful build you're proposing is the best option to show just how bad tenacity actually is?

[Nedkel]

Yeah, thats not how healing and damage taken actually works though.
A hit that does 160k pre-mitigation will do 128k to a tank. It will do 89.8k to a tank that uses a cooldown. It will do 85.1k to a tank that has stacked tenacity.
The heal(s) landing after this highly telegraphed hit is going to heal me for the same. Its going to be ~25k for a noncrit Cure2 + ~25k for a noncrit Tetra/solace regardless of the dmage I take. Or its going to be a bene for full. Or its going to have been shielded for 20k from beni / scholar shields.
Its never going to result in you casting a different heal, because there is no different combination of heals for 5% less. Its not going to result in you NOT casting a heal, because the difference in damage is less than 5%.
If you want to look solely at small things that hit for smaller amounts, and not anything standing there by itself with things you know you have to press buttons for, one tank is going to be taking 64% incoming damage, super tenacity tank is going to be taking 60.4% incoming damage.
Your tank needs to be taking 700k damage pre mitigation before this means you have to cast/activate ONE FEWER 700 potency heal. (Cure 2, solace, tetra, lustrate, Bene2, ED) Thats a TERRIBLE practical return. This is in no way a good trade for anything you might be giving up.
Tenacity from gear and melding is roughly one sixth of the value of pressing a 20% cooldown.
Its worse if a paladin has anything + sheltron. That puts it to 850,000 pre mitigation incoming damage before you save ONE heal.
Tenacity is really, really bad,

You still assume your healer is going to overheal you no matter what.
This 4% mitigation will stack up on each hit received on your tank, after certain amount of time you will save one healing spell, probably a GCD of a healer which he could use on dealing DPS or heal other, this is how its going to work. Healer still have to heal the MT or dungeon tank constantly, with any spell and ability he has, there is a source of constant damage coming in, not everything is so heavily scripted where you are only getting hit by tank busters.
And dont be so sure about the healing not being increased, i have not seen yet any prove that it does only work on self healing, but there are some anecdotal cases where people say it is making some difference to heal a tank with tenacity melds.

[RareItems]

3245 tenacity (which is the max you can get in that ilvl gear, btw) is +2895 Tenacity. The base is not counted. 2895 tenacity is 87 tenacity breakpoints. This is 8.7% damage and damage reduction. Everything between one breakpont and another breakpoint is lost to truncation.




.. because you cant meld tenacity onto gear beyond that of its highest native secondary stat and you would thus have no melds on 2 pieces and only partial melds on others? Because we're actually trying to maximize the awful build you're proposing is the best option to show just how bad tenacity actually is?

WHY Would anyone melding Tenacity waste a useless stat like Direct Hit on thier gear. It's either you meld Direct Hit then everything else or Tenacity then everything else. Are the Elite raiders of FFXIV really these dense?

And why would you not include the base Tenacity stats on your calculations? Direct Hit literally has a base of 380 for every tank.

There's are only 18 melding slots for the highest non-crafted gear. Even if you meld Direct hit on every slot you would only get 1460 Direct Hit which results in 24% chance to deal an extra 6% more damage.

24% chance to deal an extra 6% more damage. How does that even make any sense? I have no idea. Guess you have to be a Raiding sheep to understand lol.

Go ahead, keep melding Direct Hit on your gear, it keeps Tenacity materia prices down for smart ppl to buy lol.

[Barraind]

This 4% mitigation will stack up on each hit received on your tank, after certain amount of time you will save one healing spell, probably a GCD of a healer which he could use on dealing DPS or heal other.

Yes. I said that.

Every 700000 to 850000 pre-mitigation damage taken will save you exactly 1 heal.


Post mitigation, this will save you one heal every 17 heals used. At 700 potency.


Thats 700 potency you dont have to bother with every 11200 potency you're healing.

Best case scenario (for tenacity), thats one less heal you have to cast every 42 seconds.

You still assume your healer is going to overheal you no matter what.

I'm actually assuming you will never be overhealing. If you ARE overhealing, tenacity becomes EVEN WORSE, as any damage taken between the time you are at full health and full health that would not have killed you is mitigation that could have instead been outgoing damage. I'm giving you the absolute BEST case for tenacity to show you how bad tenacity really is.

I'm assuming a healer is going to use their healing spells for heals. I'm assuming any heal that also does damage is going to be used for damage.

I'm assuming a healer is not using cure1 or the like to heal.

WHY Would anyone melding Tenacity waste a useless stat like Direct Hit on thier gear. It's either you meld Direct Hit then everything else or Tenacity then everything else. Are the Elite raiders of FFXIV really these dense?

You're right, if you're melding tenacity, you are probably not using the other meld slots for the best possible stat return you can meld, you would be going with more skillspeed or piety.

Even if you meld Direct hit on every slot you would only get 1460 Direct Hit which results in 24% chance to deal an extra 6% more damage.

Direct hit is a % chance based on Dhit to do 25% more damage. This is independent of a crit or not.

And why would you not include the base Tenacity stats on your calculations?

One, because base stats work differently than stats added to the base.

Two, because no matter how they work, you have that tenacity no matter how you gear or meld, so its absolutely irrelevant for comparison purposes.