Tank Mitigation vs Tank DPS.

[Arthrun]

This is my first time having leveled a tank class and I am having a blast tanking in SHB. And as such I have come across some things that I found odd to me and would love a bit of an explanation a bit.

As a tank should I focus getting food and Materia to focus on my dps or mitigation?

2 things and prompted me to ask. I was watching some videos where they were doing savage content and the person in the video said that tanks and healers for their FC were last in the rotation to get gear to help improve the group. I thought. "Isn't survivability more important?" I took a step back and though that I came from idea of what raid groups do in WoW. For those who may not know. Mythic raiders, before personal loot was a thing, built a spread sheet of all the gear for that tier and analyzed who would benefited more from what. but almost always tier sets were prioritized with healers and tanks first to make survival priority over speed of clearing.

The second thing was that I saw in the forums that Healing and mitigation is not as prevalent need because of the need to transition phases faster means more breaks in between some situations. And I can see that point when you encounter cinematic like attacks. Visually its amazing but you do see that tanks and healers literally do get a moment to just breath. Far more than you do in WoW. Add on to the fact that in down time for healers it is better for the group to sneak in a dps spell or 2.

I would appreciate the advice because IF I am dropping Gil on tenacity Materia I would like to know if I am really using it to help progress in harder content.

Thanks.

[Allooutrick]

I'm no expert but I can imagine the reason why tank gear isn't as important as dps gear for savage content is because bosses focus more on their mecanics and cause the group to react. Better gear for the majority of your party (the dps) means they can take a little more pain for their mistakes. An adequately geared tank will still survive a tank buster if they use their cooldowns well. It also means healers don't need to heal as much, keeping their mp up for when it's needed.

[YojimboM]

I'm no expert but I can imagine the reason why tank gear isn't as important as dps gear for savage content is because bosses focus more on their mecanics and cause the group to react. Better gear for the majority of your party (the dps) means they can take a little more pain for their mistakes. An adequately geared tank will still survive a tank buster if they use their cooldowns well. It also means healers don't need to heal as much, keeping their mp up for when it's needed.

That isn't the reasoning. The reason that DPS get gear before tanks and healers is primarily because, as DPS, they stand to get the most statistical gain from higher stats. Statics that are organized will always want to get as much gain as quickly as possible, so raising the stats of their highest DPS first would be the priority, since higher DPS = higher gain from a flat stat increase. Higher stats on the DPS also has a higher impact on the speed of clear times, so that is less healing or mitigating that will need to be done in the long run, so you can view more DPS as less incoming damage as well.

Tanks and healers are already overequipped for their primary jobs (and have always been since after Midas), so they get geared last, since they already fulfill their role as they are and their DPS numbers don't stand to increase as much with higher stats since they're lower. Having more HP on DPS jobs is a bit of a red herring as long as they have enough to survive unavoidable damage, the amount of healing needed to be done will never change since there are purely finite amounts of damage in any content, and that amount of damage only decreases the faster the pull is over.

For people hanging onto Tenacity for some reason: There is no way to increase the impact Tenacity has like DPS-oriented stats can be, through the use of raid buffs or party synergy, etc. Tenacity is inherently an almost useless stat. Like Parry was in ARR and HW. Don't meld it. At best, you would be making a run slower than it needs to be and actually putting more stress on your healers since they need to deal with damage for longer.

[Nedkel]

For people hanging onto Tenacity for some reason: There is no way to increase the impact Tenacity has like DPS-oriented stats can be, through the use of raid buffs or party synergy, etc. Tenacity is inherently an almost useless stat. Like Parry was in ARR and HW. Don't meld it. At best, you would be making a run slower than it needs to be and actually putting more stress on your healers since they need to deal with damage for longer.

This is completely false and i have already pointed out why.

Between tenacity and D-hit melds there is 1.6 percentage point difference in the damage multiplier, tank damage makes up for 9-11% of the total raid damage. This number will at best decrease the time needed to finish duty by maybe 0.16%, and because it is so random and unpredictable you could as well just deal as much damage as tenacity tank, since 1.6% damage increase on the rng driven stat is likely not going to happen all the time.

So what you are basically saying is, killing boss 0-0.16% faster is going to make it easier on healers than 4.3-5% mitigation increase, which is absurd statement. It wont be even noticed by a parser.

If that healer is overhealing 50% of the time... then the saved heal isn't likely to be saved... because they are already healing you wayyyy too much. What makes you think they would then heal less?

Perhaps they should heal a bit less and the tank should cycle their damage reducing cool downs when they need to instead.

It seems the answer is that player skill is important during relevant content that you cannot over gear. Meaning having additional tenacity for minuscule gains in damage reduction is pointless. Because if they do not play properly in the first place, no sub stat in the world will save them.

The amount of heal may not be changed (prove needed), but the time in which a tank need a heal going to change.
Tank with tenacity will need to be healed less often than a tank without one, it wont be nothing that you will be able to notice as a healer since its below the 10% perception point where humans are able to notice the difference, but it will be there the same way the additional 1.6% of a total RNG stat is, but it couldnt be.

I say 4-5% additional mitigation is something worth having, than 1.6% of rng bonus damage which may or may not be working as intended.

-snip-

Also played GW2, and i cannot count how many dungeons and raids i failed in there because everyone was a glass cannon dying in one second. Without dedicated healer and one tank in gw2 raiding is a nightmare.

[YojimboM]

This is completely false and i have already pointed out why.

Between tenacity and D-hit melds there is 1.6 percentage point difference in the damage multiplier, tank damage makes up for 9-11% of the total raid damage. This number will at best decrease the time needed to finish duty by maybe 0.16%, and because it is so random and unpredictable you could as well just deal as much damage as tenacity tank, since 1.6% damage increase on the rng driven stat is likely not going to happen all the time.

So what you are basically saying is, killing boss 0-0.16% faster is going to make it easier on healers than 4.3-5% mitigation increase, which is absurd statement. It wont be even noticed by a parser.

I have no idea where you're coming up with those DH numbers from, and you're entirely excluding crit for some reason. Tank BIS this tier have approx. 1300 DH, which is a 3.8% bonus, and around 3500 crit, which is a 14% bonus. Remember that damage stats stack multiplicatively on top of that. (http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/crit/, http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/dh/)

If you brought tenacity to absolutely maximum levels possible right now (3582), the damage and mitigation bonus would still only be 9.7%, not even close to the combined crit/DH bonus. At more realistic levels (around 2000), you can expect around 5% both ways like you said, almost three times less effective than crit alone. (http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/ten/)

This isn't even beginning to go into other details, like the number of raid buffs that favor DH and crit (Battle Litany, Battle Voice, Chain Stratagem, etc). Overall, DH and crit are both much more effective than Tenacity. In short: everything you've said about the comparison in DPS increase is wrong.

Tenacity might be useful as a bleeding-edge prog stat currently, as I've heard of at least one E4S clear where a tank with 3000 tenacity saved a run with only 3k HP after mistiming a Shadow Wall, and even in that case it was due to a player mistake and not required. At absolute best, Tenacity is padding for progging where a tank might be expecting to mess something up. In any other case, using Tenacity is essentially preparing yourself for failure, because if it benefits you in any large amount it would ultimately be due to failed mechanics.

[Nedkel]

I have no idea where you're coming up with those DH numbers from, and you're entirely excluding crit for some reason. Tank BIS this tier have approx. 1300 DH, which is a 3.8% bonus, and around 3500 crit, which is a 14% bonus. Remember that damage stats stack multiplicatively on top of that. (http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/crit/, http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/dh/)

If you brought tenacity to absolutely maximum levels possible right now (3582), the damage and mitigation bonus would still only be 9.7%, not even close to the combined crit/DH bonus. At more realistic levels (around 2000), you can expect around 5% both ways like you said, almost three times less effective than crit alone. (http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/ten/)

This isn't even beginning to go into other details, like the number of raid buffs that favor DH and crit (Battle Litany, Battle Voice, Chain Stratagem, etc). Overall, DH and crit are both much more effective than Tenacity. In short: everything you've said about the comparison in DPS increase is wrong.

Tenacity might be useful as a bleeding-edge prog stat currently, as I've heard of at least one E4S clear where a tank with 3000 tenacity saved a run with only 3k HP after mistiming a Shadow Wall, and even in that case it was due to a player mistake and not required. At absolute best, Tenacity is padding for progging where a tank might be expecting to mess something up. In any other case, using Tenacity is essentially preparing yourself for failure, because if it benefits you in any large amount it would ultimately be due to failed mechanics.

I am not advocating for making maximum tenacity and take the maximum possible tenacity from equipment, because for most of the players they will not have a choice, since ilvl is the first most important thing to focus on as a tank.
I am just comparing melds because here is where the choice we really have, tenacity with mix of D hit where you cant put more tenacity against pure D hit melds.

Right now the difference sit at exact 1.7% on damage and 4.3% mitigation, with few d-hit melds its basically about 1.6% and 4.0%.
My advice, melds whatever you want, it will still give you something useful, tenacity is not useless otherwise it would be buffed.

[Komarimono]

Hmm, not sure when you played in WoW, but tank survival wasn't a problem in harder content. Naxx 40 was a roadblock since we suddenly needed extra tanks, not gear, for Four Horsemen. Before that C'thun was bugged and no one was clearing it until fixed due to mechanics.

Burning crusade it was about DPS galore to beat enrage timers in higher level raids like Black Temple and eventually Sunwell was about DPS until M'uru, then it was about DPS and survival, people using Drum Buffs and tanks stacking as much dodge etc to avoid the damage of adds North and South while another tank picked up voids, then it was about pure DPS to time the transition(This is all pre nerfs)

WotLK was again about DPS. Soft and Hard enrage timers, harder content purely about damage done like Death's Demise Yogg'saron achievement and later Algalon when added. Icecrown was about the same, minus a few fights where one relied on spamming heals on an NPC while tanks went for mitigation, but DPS was needed to clear ads quickly.
We won't discuss the boredom of the coliseum =P

Come to think about it, every hard encounter in WoW, DPS is what made the kill happen, not the tanks survival. This is coming from a Death's Demise title holder, though we did get gear as well, it was a balancing act for distributing gear based on what was needed at the moment in time. Each raid that came out, previous raid tier was enough to begin. I mean heck... We cleared WotLK Naxx in our Sunwell Gear first week.

[Arthrun]

Hmm, not sure when you played in WoW, but tank survival wasn't a problem in harder content. Naxx 40 was a roadblock since we suddenly needed extra tanks, not gear, for Four Horsemen. Before that C'thun was bugged and no one was clearing it until fixed due to mechanics.

Burning crusade it was about DPS galore to beat enrage timers in higher level raids like Black Temple and eventually Sunwell was about DPS until M'uru, then it was about DPS and survival, people using Drum Buffs and tanks stacking as much dodge etc to avoid the damage of adds North and South while another tank picked up voids, then it was about pure DPS to time the transition(This is all pre nerfs)

WotLK was again about DPS. Soft and Hard enrage timers, harder content purely about damage done like Death's Demise Yogg'saron achievement and later Algalon when added. Icecrown was about the same, minus a few fights where one relied on spamming heals on an NPC while tanks went for mitigation, but DPS was needed to clear ads quickly.
We won't discuss the boredom of the coliseum =P

Come to think about it, every hard encounter in WoW, DPS is what made the kill happen, not the tanks survival. This is coming from a Death's Demise title holder, though we did get gear as well, it was a balancing act for distributing gear based on what was needed at the moment in time. Each raid that came out, previous raid tier was enough to begin. I mean heck... We cleared WotLK Naxx in our Sunwell Gear first week.

Perhaps It was the gild I was in and we distributed gear based upon the % benefit of said gear when it was simed. Often times our results were that tanks and healers had more to gain then dps did. Raiding has changed a lot since Classic, BC and Wrath. I was never server or world leaders in completion but I was competitive all the way till legion. Damage from bosses and healing outputs are far far more intense now than it was back then. HPS now a days easiliy outpaces DPS from a statistical point of view in BFA raiding.

But then again. This is the first FF Expansion where I am wanting to take harder content seriously so I am wanting to know if I am simply melding wrong or have the wrong mindset when it comes to progressing the group when I find an FC that needs a tank.

[Komarimono]

Perhaps It was the gild I was in and we distributed gear based upon the % benefit of said gear when it was simed. Often times our results were that tanks and healers had more to gain then dps did. Raiding has changed a lot since Classic, BC and Wrath. I was never server or world leaders in completion but I was competitive all the way till legion. Damage from bosses and healing outputs are far far more intense now than it was back then. HPS now a days easiliy outpaces DPS from a statistical point of view in BFA raiding.

But then again. This is the first FF Expansion where I am wanting to take harder content seriously so I am wanting to know if I am simply melding wrong or have the wrong mindset when it comes to progressing the group when I find an FC that needs a tank.

Hmm, I dunno. I checked with former guild, since oddly still great friend with them. Healers are important, yes. But my replacement as tank, and happy they stuck around, say they are doing fine. Enough that they are thinking of going Demon Hunter for a change.

I guess it depends on simming vs actual and player. We never got into the mathmetics of it until I'd say around Lady Vashj, screw her buggy venom dropping mantas too when bugged out lol. And no fight to this date beats Pre nerf M'uru in terms if HPS vs damage taken in tanks, while you'll never see another M'uru style fight. While it was great it get it down, and funny that M'uru was harder then Kil'jaden, I'd have to agree with the devs that it was a shame so few actually got to clear it or see it due to the aggressive challenge it represented.

But that is WoW. So far in FF14, while not raided just yet so only get to play one day a week, I've noticed damage mitigation seems fine to me over gearing for DPS from possible TOS breaking measurements. Though I am only 79 and 5 days playtime. The small FC I was invited too seems to favor tanks going for mitigation when they can, and DPS going for max pew pew. FFXIV seems more about avoiding the naughty boss mechanics while keeping up damage done though, from what I've seen in raiding streams doing harder content.

[Stanelis]

Hmm, not sure when you played in WoW, but tank survival wasn't a problem in harder content. Naxx 40 was a roadblock since we suddenly needed extra tanks, not gear, for Four Horsemen. Before that C'thun was bugged and no one was clearing it until fixed due to mechanics.

Burning crusade it was about DPS galore to beat enrage timers in higher level raids like Black Temple and eventually Sunwell was about DPS until M'uru, then it was about DPS and survival, people using Drum Buffs and tanks stacking as much dodge etc to avoid the damage of adds North and South while another tank picked up voids, then it was about pure DPS to time the transition(This is all pre nerfs)

WotLK was again about DPS. Soft and Hard enrage timers, harder content purely about damage done like Death's Demise Yogg'saron achievement and later Algalon when added. Icecrown was about the same, minus a few fights where one relied on spamming heals on an NPC while tanks went for mitigation, but DPS was needed to clear ads quickly.
We won't discuss the boredom of the coliseum =P

Come to think about it, every hard encounter in WoW, DPS is what made the kill happen, not the tanks survival. This is coming from a Death's Demise title holder, though we did get gear as well, it was a balancing act for distributing gear based on what was needed at the moment in time. Each raid that came out, previous raid tier was enough to begin. I mean heck... We cleared WotLK Naxx in our Sunwell Gear first week.

You didn't really care about tank DPS in wow before mop beside for holding aggro. Also, go say to brutallus or the like of it that tank survival didn't matter. The fact you need DPS doesn't imply you don't need survival too.