Tank Mitigation vs Tank DPS.

[Ultimatecalibur]

If you clear fights faster because of damage output, meaning less healing overall, it is logical what stat should be most desired.

Not really. The key factor is how significant the increase is. A 2.7% increase in a tank's damage when they are expected to provide 10% of the total damage done to the boss only shortens a 10 minute fight by about 17 seconds. On the other hand, increasing mitigation and self healing by 8% might mean that a tank feels significantly less squishy allowing a healer to comfortably dps more.

[SturmChurro]

A good tank can pull as high as the average dancer or red mage.

Most healing is overheal, and in a boss encounter I am dpsing most of the time as a white mage; damage is an overall better stat. In dungeons, tanks are actively doing more damage than the dps. Not to mention, in burst windows tanks can do some serious damage, specifically gunbreaker.

You either want a useless stat, or a useful stat, no matter how minuscule the increase one benefits the party more than the other.

[Xatsh]

A good tank can pull as high as the average dancer or red mage.

Most healing is overheal, and in a boss encounter I am dpsing most of the time as a white mage; damage is an overall better stat. In dungeons, tanks are actively doing more damage than the dps. Not to mention, in burst windows tanks can do some serious damage, specifically gunbreaker.

You either want a useless stat, or a useful stat, no matter how minuscule the increase one benefits the party more than the other.

You been partying with some bad rdms if they are doing the same dmg as tanks.

ON the main topic:


With that said DMG > Everything in ffxiv due to enrage mechanics... so whatever gives them most dmg is king. So yea DH > Tenacity due to more defense not being needed to clear where dps will be required especially earlier on when ppl have less gear and the fight is not perfected.

[SturmChurro]

You been partying with some bad rdms if they are doing the same dmg as tanks.

ON the main topic:


With that said DMG > Everything in ffxiv due to enrage mechanics... so whatever gives them most dmg is king. So yea DH > Tenacity due to more defense not being needed to clear where dps will be required especially earlier on when ppl have less gear and the fight is not perfected.

Heck, I would add samurai to that too. Most players in this game do not know how to optimize their kit, to put it nicely.

[Nedkel]

A good tank can pull as high as the average dancer or red mage.

Most healing is overheal, and in a boss encounter I am dpsing most of the time as a white mage; damage is an overall better stat. In dungeons, tanks are actively doing more damage than the dps. Not to mention, in burst windows tanks can do some serious damage, specifically gunbreaker.

You either want a useless stat, or a useful stat, no matter how minuscule the increase one benefits the party more than the other.

If we are talking about melds, the difference between tenacity and other melds in pure damage is just 1.6-1.8%.
As a tank you should always focus on getting highest ilvl gear, so there is not really too much of a choice if it comes to secondary stats in equipment. So you are left with melds as your choice.
A tank in raid will on average do about 60% of the damage a DPS job is able to dish out.
And average dps could do about 10k, multiply it by 4, add two times 6k, and effectively you are sitting at around 10-11% of contribution to the overall team dps in raid.
How much will a 1.6% affect the raid team dps? Wel basically 0.16%
Killing it 0.16% will virtually have zero effect on the amount of healing done to a tank, if 4% does not, then 0.16% will not be even noteciable by a parser.

[SturmChurro]

If we are talking about melds, the difference between tenacity and other melds in pure damage is just 1.6-1.8%.
As a tank you should always focus on getting highest ilvl gear, so there is not really too much of a choice if it comes to secondary stats in equipment. So you are left with melds as your choice.
A tank in raid will on average do about 60% of the damage a DPS job is able to dish out.
And average dps could do about 10k, multiply it by 4, add two times 6k, and effectively you are sitting at around 10-11% of contribution to the overall team dps in raid.
How much will a 1.6% affect the raid team dps? Wel basically 0.16%
Killing it 0.16% will virtually have zero effect on the amount of healing done to a tank, if 4% does not, then 0.16% will not be even noteciable by a parser.

Again, even if the damage increase is miniscule, it is a damage increase and benefits the party more. In a trial environment, with half decent healers, a miniscule % of increased mitigation will not help at all. A crit on a heal will make the difference, and the way heals and fights are designed in general make it even more useless. A tanks skill, and knowledge of the fight combined with smart burst, and good damage output is a better tank. All a tank needs are it's dcd's used at correct periods.

[Nedkel]

Again, even if the damage increase is miniscule, it is a damage increase and benefits the party more. In a trial environment, with half decent healers, a miniscule % of increased mitigation will not help at all. A crit on a heal will make the difference, and the way heals and fights are designed in general make it even more useless.

This miniscule mitigation adds up in time, and will give a healer 4% relief during the run, the damage maybe not high, but its still there.

Read my post. I explained why a decrease of 5% does not matter to me as a healer.
This is more a matter of how healing classes are designed rather than what tanks do.

Tanks still takes sustained damage, its not all spiked bursts.
You wont notice the 4% mitigation, because its below the human perception of 10% change where something is noticeable.

As explained many times in this thread, while it does reduce the damage taken by a few % when compared to a gearset without tenacity melds, the difference is not significant enough to allow your healers to heal you any less, which is why it is not recommended. Your raid healers will want you to boost your damage instead, your dungeon healers don't care one way or another.

Its not has been proven, the prove is that healer has to use X spell to heal a tank and so because of it mitigation does not matter.
You dont count a time in these analysis, a tank with mitigation will require healing less often by a parts of seconds, which is going to turn into significant amount of time the longer fight is going.
A tank getting multiple hits to 50% will take X amount of time for this to happen, and if you give one of the tanks 4% mitigation it will hit this point 4% later in time.
This game still has sustained damage, it still needs to be healed out.
Its just that we are operating on so small numbers its never going to be noticeable.

[SturmChurro]

Snip

You do not take in account human (player) behavior. You have 2 healers in a trial run, with heals overtime, and stacking too many heals on top of each other. All you have to do is figure out how much overhealing is actually done to know why this minuscule mitigation is worth literally nothing, while damage is always worth something. If I crit it doesn't matter if the tank is taking 2% less damage it is healed anyway, if I crit and the other healer crits on the same tank it is overheal; too much. Doesn't even have to be a crit, if I heal, and the other healer heals at the same time there will be too much most of the time. Even if both tanks are taking damage at the same time and we heal each seperately, my burst heals are still enough. On a TB healers have shields, and with smart dcd usage it still literally means nothing.Too much heals are what happens in these environments. A (very) minor increase to mitigation helps nothing.

[Granyala]

And average dps could do about 10k, multiply it by 4, add two times 6k, and effectively you are sitting at around 10-11% of contribution to the overall team dps in raid.
How much will a 1.6% affect the raid team dps? Wel basically 0.16%
Killing it 0.16% will virtually have zero effect on the amount of healing done to a tank, if 4% does not, then 0.16% will not be even noteciable by a parser.

Yup, melds won't make or break a boss fight. Common mistakes in play (we're human after all), eating a void and getting a stack or even simply moving a few GCDs too long all have a much bigger impact on the teams performance.

Which is probably why SE doesn't really try to beef up tenacity to be competitive. They know that, in the end, it doesn't matter what a given player melds as long as he DOES meld the slots.

Some people just enjoy the optimization game and I get that. Personally I'd never give a tank grief for choosing tenacity. Oo
As long as he is competent and the raid knows what to do, the boss will go down anyway.
1.7% tank damage more or less is inconsequential to the final outcome.
Assuming 7K tank DPS, we're talking about a delta of lousy 119 DPS.

Tanks still takes sustained damage, its not all spiked bursts.
You wont notice the 4% mitigation, because its below the human perception of 10% change where something is noticeable.

It is rare that I get below 20% overhealing anyway.
Trust me: 4% does not affect my performance at all.

[RareItems]

Made another set of ilvl450 Fending gear, melded it with just Direct Hit, and have been testing it with a Samurai Friend so he can do the parsing for me. After running some Expert Roullete with it and at least 6 diffirent E4N Parties, The difference is pretty obvious and its also something that i already knew from the start.

You gain a about close to a 1-2k DPS on single target and 3-4k DPS on AoE Mass Pulls but you lose most of your utility as a tank plus the healers have to heal more and dps less (Duh).

Putting on a Ilvl450 Fending set with DH Melds on did not make any Dungeon run or E4N Run faster than if you have a ilvl450 Fending set with Tenacity/Skillspeed/Crit/Det.

So all the ppl here saying Direct Hit is the best for Tanks, and in the server chat when some newbie tank asks, which meld should they go for if they are a tank? They are pandering to an ignorant idea that Tenacity is useless and Direct Hit is the way to go.

Here's the Lodestone link, you can check all the Direct Hit Melds for the Test i did. I'll probably use it when i get lazy healers that don't DPS. It's nice to have a DPS set as a Tank.

https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...racter/240991/