Tank Mitigation vs Tank DPS.

[Adrestia]

WHY Would anyone melding Tenacity waste a useless stat like Direct Hit on thier gear. It's either you meld Direct Hit then everything else or Tenacity then everything else. Are the Elite raiders of FFXIV really these dense?

And why would you not include the base Tenacity stats on your calculations? Direct Hit literally has a base of 380 for every tank.

There's are only 18 melding slots for the highest non-crafted gear. Even if you meld Direct hit on every slot you would only get 1460 Direct Hit which results in 24% chance to deal an extra 6% more damage.

24% chance to deal an extra 6% more damage. How does that even make any sense? I have no idea. Guess you have to be a Raiding sheep to understand lol.

Go ahead, keep melding Direct Hit on your gear, it keeps Tenacity materia prices down for smart ppl to buy lol.

You’ve got it backwards. Direct hit has linear returns where point for point at low values it is as strong as point for point at high values. The mistake would be melding crit, which has geometric returns that start weaker than direct hit but compound to higher values once you have enough. At currently available item levels, if you’re shoving tenacity everywhere that you can, crit is the stat that would be proportionally weaker.

[Barraind]

This 4% mitigation will stack up on each hit received on your tank, after certain amount of time you will save one healing spell, probably a GCD of a healer which he could use on dealing DPS or heal other.

Yes. I said that.

Every 700000 to 850000 pre-mitigation damage taken will save you exactly 1 heal.


Post mitigation, this will save you one heal every 17 heals used. At 700 potency.


Thats 700 potency you dont have to bother with every 11200 potency you're healing.

Best case scenario (for tenacity), thats one less heal you have to cast every 42 seconds.

You still assume your healer is going to overheal you no matter what.

I'm actually assuming you will never be overhealing. If you ARE overhealing, tenacity becomes EVEN WORSE, as any damage taken between the time you are at full health and full health that would not have killed you is mitigation that could have instead been outgoing damage. I'm giving you the absolute BEST case for tenacity to show you how bad tenacity really is.

I'm assuming a healer is going to use their healing spells for heals. I'm assuming any heal that also does damage is going to be used for damage.

I'm assuming a healer is not using cure1 or the like to heal.

WHY Would anyone melding Tenacity waste a useless stat like Direct Hit on thier gear. It's either you meld Direct Hit then everything else or Tenacity then everything else. Are the Elite raiders of FFXIV really these dense?

You're right, if you're melding tenacity, you are probably not using the other meld slots for the best possible stat return you can meld, you would be going with more skillspeed or piety.

Even if you meld Direct hit on every slot you would only get 1460 Direct Hit which results in 24% chance to deal an extra 6% more damage.

Direct hit is a % chance based on Dhit to do 25% more damage. This is independent of a crit or not.

And why would you not include the base Tenacity stats on your calculations?

One, because base stats work differently than stats added to the base.

Two, because no matter how they work, you have that tenacity no matter how you gear or meld, so its absolutely irrelevant for comparison purposes.

[RareItems]

You're right, if you're melding tenacity, you are probably not using the other meld slots for the best possible stat return you can meld, you would be going with more skillspeed or piety.

Actually i Melded Tenacity, then Skillspeed, then Crit on my PLD tank gear. Crit 1999, Det 1857, Direct Hit 418, Skillspeed 2227, Tenacity 3214. Thx to all the ppl selling cheap tier 7 Tenacity/Skillspeed materia lol.

60k Clemencies are nice. 10k Tankbusters is nice too.

[ForteNightshade]

Actually i Melded Tenacity, then Skillspeed, then Crit on my PLD tank gear. Crit 1999, Det 1857, Direct Hit 418, Skillspeed 2227, Tenacity 3214. Thx to all the ppl selling cheap tier 7 Tenacity/Skillspeed materia lol.

60k Clemencies are nice. 10k Tankbusters is nice too.

... and this alone epitomizes why you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. PLD hates Skill Speed because it mis-aligns Fight or Flight. You want only a set amount—current bis being 1133—then you never touch the stat again. As for that 10k tankbuster. Tenacity makes absolutely zero relevant difference. You'll use the same cooldowns, your heal with use the same heals. All that changes is you're doing less damage by foolishly gimping yourself out of pure stubbornness. You can decry "raid elitists" all you fancy but theorycrafters actually put in the work to determine how each stat benefits us. What have you done? Screamed on a forum how right you are with zero evidence to support your feelscraft nonsense and somehow insist a meld set build for Savage or Ultimate content will be inferior in a dungeon—you know, that mindlessly brain dead easy content.

[Jade3173]

So...I do meld tenacity on my tanks for a couple of reasons. First and foremost is that the toughest content I ever take my tanks into is Normal Mode Raids where that little extra damage from DH over Ten isn't going to really matter in that run. I do this knowing that it's less useful but I'm cheap and whatever DH materia I get goes into my DPS classes since I tend to play more than one type and really only DNC at the moment gets perfectly melded since it's the class that'll be doing all the hard stuff where that 1% increase will matter. Lastly, I'm cheap and lazy since I know that Normal Mode Raids don't need that extra boost.

If you're taking your tank into EX/Savage level content as your main class that you want to do perfectly, then yes, avoid Tenacity, suck it up and buy the more expensive DH materia, do roulettes for the materia, do your daily hunts and kill any A/S ranks that appear to help offset costs of buying.

[Nedkel]

Yes. I said that.
Every 700000 to 850000 pre-mitigation damage taken will save you exactly 1 heal.
Post mitigation, this will save you one heal every 17 heals used. At 700 potency.
Thats 700 potency you dont have to bother with every 11200 potency you're healing.
Best case scenario (for tenacity), thats one less heal you have to cast every 42 seconds.

And it does make difference, could affect the whole party performance with a healer being able to dish out one dps move. Its like a healer having additional extra 1400 spell speed reducing his gcd by 0.12 sec.
This is enough to make up for that 1-2% damage difference on a tank.
The thing becomes even more obvious in dungeons, where there is a constant source of high damage hitting a tank.

I'm actually assuming you will never be overhealing. If you ARE overhealing, tenacity becomes EVEN WORSE, as any damage taken between the time you are at full health and full health that would not have killed you is mitigation that could have instead been outgoing damage. I'm giving you the absolute BEST case for tenacity to show you how bad tenacity really is.
I'm assuming a healer is going to use their healing spells for heals. I'm assuming any heal that also does damage is going to be used for damage.
I'm assuming a healer is not using cure1 or the like to heal.

I think its a fair trade off.
DH is another RNG added to the equation, where tenacity is more of a team dependent stat which could be but dont have to be random.
Tenacity does bring some indirect (hehe) benefits to your tanking, comes with a little drawback and gives something else.

You may wonder why they havent changed this stat for 2 years and will probably not be changed in next 2. Devs clearly has some reasons for doing it.

[Barraind]

you cant even get 1820 Direct Hit.

What?

You can hit 2780 total hit if you really want to.

The build that does that is less good than the build that doesnt use full crafted though. (Crafted gear can have 220 hit on it if it has 3 overmeld slots, or 180 if it has 4 overmeld. Blue gear can only have 120 max. Belts max out at 186 secondary stats at that ilvl though, so you can potentially waste 14 substats if you meld like you're a moron).

Check the number of materia slots on the new i460 and i470 belts and accessories. In order for raid/tomestone accessories not to be inferior to crafted they now have 2 materia slots. 380 + 12*2*60=1820.

They arent even considering that tier of gear, they're looking at purely crafted gear (for some reason).

Still doesn't change the fact that Tenacity > Direct Hit

Tenacity is not, nor has it ever been the best tank stat.

It is the second worst beyond "skillspeed beyond necessary to ensure my rotation works".

It is a stat that, AT BEST, will save 1 heal every 17 cast heals.

Being willfully ignorant does not change that.

[Adrestia]

Survivability is also heavily dictated by cooldown management. If a fight (say a dungeon pull where you’re always taking a lot of damage rather than a raid boss where it’s discrete spikes) takes 20 seconds longer because of poor DPS, that 20 seconds runs the risk of being after you’ve run out of cooldowns. If you’re down 20 or 30% mitigation because of that, your healer is definitely going to notice. It’s better to just put the mobs down quickly before your resources are exhausted.

[RareItems]

Survivability is also heavily dictated by cooldown management. If a fight (say a dungeon pull where you’re always taking a lot of damage rather than a raid boss where it’s discrete spikes) takes 20 seconds longer because of poor DPS, that 20 seconds runs the risk of being after you’ve run out of cooldowns. If you’re down 20 or 30% mitigation because of that, your healer is definitely going to notice. It’s better to just put the mobs down quickly before your resources are exhausted.

A Tank with Tenacity melds don't even need cooldowns.

Take for example Titan on Eden Normal floor 4. He has a nasty Tankbuster that gives a debuff. Did it 5 times today. His Tankbuster did about 10k dmg on me, sometimes zero, all i used was Sheltron and Rampart/Sentinel. Then on one of the rounds, we had a Warrior with Direct Hit Melds on and he just instapulled, so i just supported him. Even with Intervention, his HP still dropped down to 20k. Oh here's the funny part, i voked it since he looks like he's struggling and 1 of the healers died. And he vokes Titan back to him. He died the next Tankbuster lol. Sounds like someone saw the forums and decided to put Direct Hit for his melds lol.

People keep pushing Direct Hit for Tanks when it clearly only makes sense to use it for Clearing DPS checks on Raids. People with Direct Hit Melds are just trying to justify their melds saying its BiS for everything when it's clearly not.

[Barraind]

His Tankbuster did about 10k dmg on me, sometimes zero, all i used was Sheltron and Rampart/Sentinel.

.......................

so you had 48.8% DR from tank passive and cooldowns.

Your tenacity was 4% damage reduction.


4%.

That is 1.9% more mitigation than taking the "I want to do 4% more damage" option.

Totally worth it, that wasnt.