Tank Mitigation vs Tank DPS.

[Typhoria]

TBH materia feels fairly pointless in general for battle roles.

For example:
The gains from Tenacity, Direct Hit and Determination are linear. 24 meld slots exist granting a total of 1440 extra secondary stats with full 470 gear, which grants a damage increase of 4.3%(Tenacity), 6%(Direct Hit) and 5.6%(Determination).

Even Crit, which has a more dynamic scaling, doesn't gain much from 1440. Assuming zero base Crit it would be a 6.67% increase and at high levels of Crit, the gain would not exceed 7.5%.

Skill/Spellspeed for the comfort zone GCD/cast time is pretty much the exception assuming you don't reach that point from gear alone.


On a separate note, the damage reduction from Tenacity suffers from diminishing returns with other damage reduction. Since damage reduction stacking is a multiplicative value, the Tenacity value that would give 10% reduction, actually gives 8% reduction after factoring in the 20% trait reduction. Add in Rampart, the value drops to 6.4%. With Rampart and the 30% skill it drops to 4.48% and if you add in a 20% Shelltron/Raw Intuition the value drops to 3.584%.

[Renato]

This is the one issue I've always had playing as a tank over the years I've been playing this game. It provides a means to branch of into a unique build but you really don't benefeit from doing so because of the design of the game. Tanks have a specific stat that was created for them but it's worthless due to the way the game is made. For the longest time, CRIT and DH have always been recommended over any kind of defensive melds because as long as you can kill your target faster, nothing else really matters.

I feel like that's wht SE has made the changes to healing, wanting them to focus more on that than DPS-ing but still DPS takes top priority over anything.

[Kaethra]

It won't change anything about how the healers are healing in any content.

This.

You take a 100,000 hit and it is reduced by 97,500 damage. You're still getting hit by the same healing spell. Still one GCD. No change in whether its there or not.

But if you do 1% more damage across all the damage you do. That's a bigger boon. You hit more often then the boss hits you. Every hit you take is a heal the healer needs to do. Tenacity doesn't change that. But if you need to hit the boss 300 times in a fight. 1% damage is going to make that 291 hits. Or first hit plus 8 GCDs. Saving at least 20 seconds for every 300 hits you need to kill the boss.

Anyone got parse data on how many hits a tank does on one of these bosses? For a 12-15 minute fight at a 2.5s GCD, 300 seems to be a good round number accounting for dodging or what not.

[RareItems]

If a tank melded only Direct Hit on the ilvl450 Crafted gear, he could reach 2780 Direct Hit meaning he would gain 11.5% Damage increase ON PHYSICAL ATTACKS. But you would have to meld ONLY Direct Hit to reach that.

if a tank melded Tenacity as his primary stats on a ilvl450 Crafted gear, he could reach 3214 Tenacity meaning he would gain 9.7% Damage increase, 9.7% Damage Mitigation + 9.7% more self healing. That's just for Tenacity, that's not counting the other melds you have to put on the empty materia slots like Skillspeed and Crit/Det.

This is based after calculating using the 5.0 "Theorycrafted" job stat weights on this link.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tat_intervals/

Pretty much a no brainer Tenacity > Direct Hit. Even SquareEnix knows Tank's don't need to stack Direct Hit by giving it the same base Direct Hit as a naked Botanist.

[Typhoria]

If a tank melded only Direct Hit on the ilvl450 Crafted gear, he could reach 2780 Direct Hit meaning he would gain 11.5% Damage increase ON PHYSICAL ATTACKS. But you would have to meld ONLY Direct Hit to reach that.

if a tank melded Tenacity as his primary stats on a ilvl450 Crafted gear, he could reach 3214 Tenacity meaning he would gain 9.7% Damage increase, 9.7% Damage Mitigation + 9.7% more self healing. That's just for Tenacity, that's not counting the other melds you have to put on the empty materia slots like Skillspeed and Crit/Det.

This is based after calculating using the 5.0 "Theorycrafted" job stat weights on this link.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tat_intervals/

Pretty much a no brainer Tenacity > Direct Hit. Even SquareEnix knows Tank's don't need to stack Direct Hit by giving it the same base Direct Hit as a naked Botanist.

Well, Direct Hit also effects magic damage not just Physical Damage. In terms of straight damage, other than Crit, Direct Hit is the *best* for damage. Focusing on specific melding is mostly inconsequential considering how little the damage difference between all of them are. The damage reduction is pretty terrible, mainly due to diminishing returns.

[Barraind]

Yeah, no.

You're not looking at how the stats on gear actually works, as has been pointed out for pages.

You're wrong, and doubling down on being wrong.

Tenacitys best use is one overmeld if the +20 will let you hit a .1% breakpoint. Otherwise it's not as valuable.

You arent getting healed differently taking barely noticable less damage. Eoslene is still going to hug you the same way she always does. You're getting the same heal after a tankbuster you always are. You're getting adlo or bene at the same time you otherwise would be, because that's when they come off CD. Your regen / faerielove ticks are still ticking the same as they ever would be.

All you're doing is less damage.

14 is not other MMO's. Bulking your tank stats up in a game where people dont/cant vary heal potency does next to nothing, and does LESS than ot did when we didnt have permanent tank mitigation.

I want tenacity to be a viable option. It just isnt, because 14 doesnt work that way.

[AxlStream]

Well, Direct Hit also effects magic damage not just Physical Damage. In terms of straight damage, other than Crit, Direct Hit is the *best* for damage. Focusing on specific melding is mostly inconsequential considering how little the damage difference between all of them are. The damage reduction is pretty terrible, mainly due to diminishing returns.

I feel like that depends on how your job actually works. Mnk and War want alot of crit as Mnk actually generates more Chakra with high crit and War actually increase their damage impressively for their IR windows.

[Kaethra]

This is based after calculating using the 5.0 "Theorycrafted" job stat weights on this link.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tat_intervals/

Your link says Not Found.

But as I've stated, in a vacuum a 2.5% damage reduction over a 1% increase in damage sounds great.

But in practice, a hit on the tank equals a heal from the healer. 100,000 damage becomes 97,500 damage, its the same heal needed from your healer.

While 1% damage means 9 less hits over a 12-15 minute fight, or a 20 second clear time.

Tenacity doesn't change the number of heals needed.

Direct Hit from one tank makes the fight 20 seconds shorter. Both tanks is 40 seconds. That's a difference between hitting enrage or not.

And outside savage content. The difference in damage taken is substantially lower. So instead of Tenacity decreasing a hit by 2500 damage. It does it by 1500 or even lower. While the 1% damage is still being applied. Arguably its better even for non-savage content because of that.

For Tenacity to be worth it. It would need to actually increase the number of hits taken before a heal is needed. That's not something 10% Dmg reduction is enough. You would need Tenacity to apply 1% for every 50 Tenacity instead of 200. And that's going by your outdated 2017 math.

But this is why focusing on damage reduction has not been a focus since 2004. This is why dmg on tanks has always been king for nearly 2 decades.

[Taika]

If a tank melded only Direct Hit on the ilvl450 Crafted gear, he could reach 2780 Direct Hit meaning he would gain 11.5% Damage increase ON PHYSICAL ATTACKS. But you would have to meld ONLY Direct Hit to reach that.

if a tank melded Tenacity as his primary stats on a ilvl450 Crafted gear, he could reach 3214 Tenacity meaning he would gain 9.7% Damage increase, 9.7% Damage Mitigation + 9.7% more self healing. That's just for Tenacity, that's not counting the other melds you have to put on the empty materia slots like Skillspeed and Crit/Det.

Here's what the tank DPS calculator says comparing the i450 crafted gear with the two pentamelded options...

1) Tenacity > Direct Hit




2) Full Direct Hit



Full Direct Hit is 4.4% less Tenacity mitigation and ~2.7% higher DPS (7.5k vs. 7.7k average).

[RareItems]

People doesn't seem to take into account, that if a Tank melds Direct Hit, it will be only Direct Hit on every slot. You can't slot Tenacity on every slot. So your going to have space for Crit/Det/SKS and even DH.

If you take into account all the Crit/SKS/Det your melding together with Tenacity, i'm sure it will be close/equal or even surpass you melding Direct Hit in terms of Damage increase.

I have a tank with 3200+ Tenacity right now? I only have PLD at 80 atm but we can test it out right now doing Eden normal floor 1. The only rule is, no Tictures, just you and me queuing together.

Current 5.0 stat weights:

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tat_intervals/