Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Kaedan]

lmao i didnt make up "what if they were new and inexperienced" it was literally in the comment i replied to. thats not a strawman.


being kicked is not being harassed. the party thinking i dont want to play with this person (for whatever reason) and then removing them from the group is not harassment.

It very much is if they were kicked for the reason the OP laid out in OP. The tank was not being unreasonable and was playing within the design parameters of the content.

Your strawman, btw, was "it's not fair for me to meet any kind of expectation". That's hyperbole to the extreme, and not at all within the context of what's being discussed.

The situation is this: The tank was pulling 1 group at a time rather than gathering 2-3 groups. There is nothing wrong with that at all, and kicking said tank for it was quite clearly harassment. Yes, there are "lines" of what is acceptable and what isn't (which I gave examples of), but this situation is not at all one that called for kicking

[Fland]

what i am saying is its not about what the majority wants, its about what is a fair expectation for the content.

the expectation will vary depending on the content, and what you agreed to going into the content.

The expectation also includes the possibility of getting paired with other people who might kick us out, for whatever reasons (from not the liking the way we play to pure trolling).
I'm not saying it's right or the norm, just that it's better to go with that in mind so we'll get less upset and move on.

[Mavrias]

It very much is if they were kicked for the reason the OP laid out in OP. The tank was not being unreasonable and was playing within the design parameters of the content.

Your strawman, btw, was "it's not fair for me to meet any kind of expectation". That's hyperbole to the extreme, and not at all within the context of what's being discussed.

The situation is this: The tank was pulling 1 group at a time rather than gathering 2-3 groups. There is nothing wrong with that at all, and kicking said tank for it was quite clearly harassment. Yes, there are "lines" of what is acceptable and what isn't (which I gave examples of), but this situation is not at all one that called for kicking

the content is not what determines a kick. the party is the ones kicking you, not the group. if they dont want to play with someone, even in the situation in the OP, they don't have to. thats what the kick and leave functions are for. differences in playstyle has been cited multiple times as a valid reason to kick another party member.

perhaps the emphasis of "any expectation" is hyperbole but still expectations are not being met and i feel that honestly by level 70 the excuse of being inexperienced does not hold.

[Kaedan]

the content is not what determines a kick. the party is the ones kicking you, not the group. if they dont want to play with someone, even in the situation in the OP, they don't have to. thats what the kick and leave functions are for. differences in playstyle has been cited multiple times as a valid reason to kick another party member.

perhaps the emphasis of "any expectation" is hyperbole but still expectations are not being met and i feel that honestly by level 70 the excuse of being inexperienced does not hold.

The bolded line in your response is simply not true. The kick system is very often abused and used for harassment purposes. There are hundreds and thousands of valid reports and punishments made for people unreasonably kicking someone from a group (especially if the non-kicked members are pre-made).

Yes, you are correct that kicking someone =/= harassment... necessarily. But it can be, and often is.

The situation outlined by the OP is not one in which the tank was being unreasonable, and there was no valid reason to kick the tank. And frankly, that is the entire point of this thread. Not whether there are or are not situations where kicking is acceptable (that's quite obvious that there are).


There is a such thing as expectations being objectively too high. And this is one of those. It's not like the tank was losing threat constantly or dying constantly or afking. All he was doing is going a tiny bit slower than he possibly could have (large group pulling actually doesn't shave that much time off your dungeon run, btw).

When you see the "there is someone who hasn't done this dungeon before" message pop up, and it's the tank, do you immediately kick them? If not, that right there is a reasonable example of an inexperienced tank at level 70.

[cicatriz313]

When you see the "there is someone who hasn't done this dungeon before" message pop up, and it's the tank, do you immediately kick them? If not, that right there is a reasonable example of an inexperienced tank at level 70.

Why would you kick someone for not having done a dungeon before? Not sure if we are playing the same game, but most 4 man dungeons since like the hard modes at level 50 have been easy to pull to the wall and aoe. I think that's what their point is, at level 70 you know that's the norm and inexperience isn't really the excuse anymore. There's plenty of other excuses, bad gear, bad healer, refusal to do it because "you don't pay my sub" etc but experience only really matters for boss fights in these dungeons. As for your point about it not being a valid reason to kick the tank, the group asked the tank to pull more and said they were had his back, tank refused flat out, group imo had every right to remove him and roll the roulette again. I wouldn't personally because who knows how long that'd take to replace a tank, but I think whether it's reasonable or not is up to that individual.

[OcieKo]

Why would you kick someone for not having done a dungeon before? Not sure if we are playing the same game, but most 4 man dungeons since like the hard modes at level 50 have been easy to pull to the wall and aoe. I think that's what their point is, at level 70 you know that's the norm and inexperience isn't really the excuse anymore. There's plenty of other excuses, bad gear, bad healer, refusal to do it because "you don't pay my sub" etc but experience only really matters for boss fights in these dungeons. As for your point about it not being a valid reason to kick the tank, the group asked the tank to pull more and said they were had his back, tank refused flat out, group imo had every right to remove him and roll the roulette again. I wouldn't personally because who knows how long that'd take to replace a tank, but I think whether it's reasonable or not is up to that individual.

I find it to be the norm that a tank should know where the next adds that need to be picked up come from. If they don't they shouldn't put themselves in a position for "surprises". I can be max gear, I still won't mass pull my first run, I want to know where mobs come from, how to group them, what AoEs/Abilities I need to watch for, which mobs can spike damage up, etc.

and i am saying that the reason given by the people in OP's discord was a valid one. they did not want to play with that tank, so they replaced him when they confirmed that said tank was not going to at least try to big pull. none of that was harassment.

what? being new is not grounds for being kicked and never did i say that. if you are new to content and are using that as an excuse to not work with your group or do your best i personally dont agree with it, but again that is up to the party.

in this specific example, you can be new to a dungeon and still make an attempt to big pull.

And none of what the tank did was being AFK, being Offline, Cheating, or Harassment, relying on a grey area to save you for kicking people for funsies is closer to harassment than playing in a way that isn't speed run meta. If you don't want to play with someone who isn't doing one of those 4 things clearly, the proper option is to leave, if you have 3/4 people well 3 people leave. Can't say how many times I've left pre-made DPS high and dry with no tank or healer for kicking one.

In OPs case I really see nothing wrong with it. It's the tank's right to decide they prefer small pulls but if he happens to be in a group where the majority would prefer and support a different style, it's just bad luck for everyone and majority wins.

Majority can opt to leave. The tank did nothing legitimately wrong, they moved, they pulled, they held aggro, they tanked.

[Rilifane]

I don't think you should be forced to put with everything simply because you queued in DF nor do I think it's harassment if you either point out that the majority would welcome and fully support (even in case of failure) an adjustment to playstyle or end up kicking someone because of too contradicting playstyles of one vs. the others.
This goes for all roles, not just tank.
It's within everyone's right to decide wether they want to play with someone or not. If one player doesn't like the playstyle of the other 3, I think the best solution is simply to leave. Neither leaving nor trying to come to terms with the others and simply forcing the own playstyle on the group is imo egoistic. If it's a clear majority situation, the one who doesnt seem to fit is best served by just leaving or getting kicked.
This doesn't have to get personal at all and the queue time for certain roles have nothing to do with how valuable their opinion is over others.
I got kicked once because the others didn't like that I spent a lot of time dpsing as a healer and felt sort of unsafe. Okay. Their decision. I wasn't willing to play in a way that I deemed inefficient nor were they willing to trust my abilities, so it's best to part ways early. I requeue, they look for replacement and the next groups are hopefully more to our liking.
In OPs case I really see nothing wrong with it. It's the tank's right to decide they prefer small pulls but if he happens to be in a group where the majority would prefer and support a different style, it's just bad luck for everyone and majority wins.

[Mavrias]

The bolded line in your response is simply not true. The kick system is very often abused and used for harassment purposes. There are hundreds and thousands of valid reports and punishments made for people unreasonably kicking someone from a group (especially if the non-kicked members are pre-made).

Yes, you are correct that kicking someone =/= harassment... necessarily. But it can be, and often is.

The situation outlined by the OP is not one in which the tank was being unreasonable, and there was no valid reason to kick the tank. And frankly, that is the entire point of this thread. Not whether there are or are not situations where kicking is acceptable (that's quite obvious that there are).


There is a such thing as expectations being objectively too high. And this is one of those. It's not like the tank was losing threat constantly or dying constantly or afking. All he was doing is going a tiny bit slower than he possibly could have (large group pulling actually doesn't shave that much time off your dungeon run, btw).

When you see the "there is someone who hasn't done this dungeon before" message pop up, and it's the tank, do you immediately kick them? If not, that right there is a reasonable example of an inexperienced tank at level 70.

and i am saying that the reason given by the people in OP's discord was a valid one. they did not want to play with that tank, so they replaced him when they confirmed that said tank was not going to at least try to big pull. none of that was harassment.

what? being new is not grounds for being kicked and never did i say that. if you are new to content and are using that as an excuse to not work with your group or do your best i personally dont agree with it, but again that is up to the party.

in this specific example, you can be new to a dungeon and still make an attempt to big pull.

[Kaedan]

Why would you kick someone for not having done a dungeon before? Not sure if we are playing the same game, but most 4 man dungeons since like the hard modes at level 50 have been easy to pull to the wall and aoe. I think that's what their point is, at level 70 you know that's the norm and inexperience isn't really the excuse anymore. There's plenty of other excuses, bad gear, bad healer, refusal to do it because "you don't pay my sub" etc but experience only really matters for boss fights in these dungeons. As for your point about it not being a valid reason to kick the tank, the group asked the tank to pull more and said they were had his back, tank refused flat out, group imo had every right to remove him and roll the roulette again. I wouldn't personally because who knows how long that'd take to replace a tank, but I think whether it's reasonable or not is up to that individual.

My point was that any reasonable person WOULDN'T kick a tank from the group simply for it being their first time running the dungeon. And that's an example of a level 70 being (reasonably) inexperienced and perhaps wanting to only take it 1 group at a time rather than 2-3.

[Kaedan]

and i am saying that the reason given by the people in OP's discord was a valid one. they did not want to play with that tank, so they replaced him when they confirmed that said tank was not going to at least try to big pull. none of that was harassment.

Apparently we're simply not going to agree on this point. I think a group who would kick a tank for pulling 1 group at a time rather than 2-3 is petty, immature, irrational, and lacks even the basic modicum of patience and understanding. And since the tank wasn't doing anything against the rules and was playing perfectly within the bounds of acceptable behavior in the dungeon, kicking him was flat out harassment.

Like I said, he wasn't losing threat or constantly dying or making mistakes that caused significant wastes of time. In fact, pulling 1 group at a time rather than 2-3 would have only cost the group about 2-5 minutes of playtime (yes, that's the average time saved by large group pulling).

^^ I can chain pull most dungeons in under 25m depending on the group setup, I find AoEing takes longer, more wipes, more "I'm out of TP/MP", also its boring AF. But I'm just a weird dude who likes to have fun playing video games, not play em like I'm a salesman working on 100% commission.

That's another good point. Single group chain pulling can be just as fast as large group pulling as well. From experience, I've found that single pulling certain groups in The Burn actually makes the run go faster than wall pulling.