Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Awha]

not really, because its his role. Ultimately as long as his playstyle is a winning one, kicking him is somewhat abusive. No player is an npc, controlled by the will of the other 3.

lets look at it this way.

4 people pay for a shared cab. They find out 1 person's destination will make the trip 15% slower. They demand he get off 5 blocks away, or they will kick him out the cab.

1)why are people choosing to ride share if they can't accept some people's location?
2)why is it riteous that 3 people get to decide where he gets off, for thier own benefit?
3)why is it he has to pay extra, even though he is the one properly using the ride sharing cab?

yes, 3 people are slightly inconvienced by his stop, but if they didnt want random locations they should not be taking random extra passengers and kicking them out, after they pay.

they are more wrong because they are against the spirit of the duty finder, and because they are making him pay for thier error (joining a random queue with specific demands)

Is it fair?

While I am no ride share expert, have only done it three times, from my experience when using ride share each passengers route is on the way no real deviations were ever made. Never ran into the case where someones location was random in the sense that it was not along the same or similar route. So the three in question did not have to alter their plans in any great way. (Might have been luck) not sure how that equates to the same situation.

Where did he 15% extra time come from? If I took part in ride share and three people found out the fourths ride required the driver to take a different route that deviated from their destination or the person willingly wanted to take forever to get out of the car taking micro steps then yeah I do think they would be within their right to be annoyed. Now if some outside factor caused the delay such as an accident caused by speeding, or the person had a hard time getting out of the car for whatever reason. That is a different story.

LOL though if ride share did have a vote system that was based off the majority pretty sure some would have exercised their right to try and vote the fourth out.

[Physic]

While I am no ride share expert, have only done it three times, from my experience when using ride share each passengers route is normally on the way no real deviations were ever made, (Might have been luck) not sure how that equates to the same situation. If I took part in ride share and three people found out the fourths ride required the driver to take a different route that deviated from their destination then yeah I do think they would be within their right to be annoyed.

it was an example, the real rules of ride share was not the point.

the point is every one has to pay up front before getting a group, in time. Everyone pays extra time until the conflict occurs.
one guy wants to continue to play in a way that is consistent with design of the game
other guys want to play in a different way that is also consistent

why do the other guys get to choose to waste the other guy's initial investment, when no ones initial investment needs to be wasted?

what is fair about 3 people punishing one guy, simply because they disagree on how fast he should do his job?

Majority opinion is not necessarily the correct stance.

[Awha]

it was an example, the real rules of ride share was not the point.

the point is every one has to pay up front before getting a group, in time. Everyone pays extra time until the conflict occurs.
one guy wants to continue to play in a way that is consistent with design of the game
other guys want to play in a different way that is also consistent

why do the other guys get to choose to waste the other guy's initial investment, when no ones initial investment needs to be wasted?

what is fair about 3 people punishing one guy, simply because they disagree on how fast he should do his job?

Majority opinion is not necessarily the correct stance.

In hypotheticals rules do matter, since said rules have an impact on how one would react to the situation. Because fair is subjective only objective marker we can go by are the rules present in the situation. In aspect of fairness it does not add much to the conversation, since in my case going based off no established, and my stop would caused a delay for the other three people I would simply get off their stop and walk to my desired location since in that would net the largest postive outcome since in theory more people would be generally pleased.

Which sense of fairness is right? What marker could we use to determine that if no rules are present.

[Jeeqbit]

As someone who has mained a PLD for over 4 years, I can clearly answer this for you.

If a tank does not want to do big pulls, that's up to them. If you want big pulls, then main a tank yourself. I personally feel that small pulls are boring regardless of if I am tanking, healing or DPSing, but it is the tank that gets to decide that so deal with it.

Please remember that in many cases a tank is completely new to a dungeon. They have not even completed the map. How can they be expected to do a big pull when they don't even know where to run nor what enemies they will encounter and what tankbusters they may or may not do? When I was new to a lot of level 50 dungeons years ago everyone would demand big pulls from me despite that it was impossible because I didn't have the map completed. I had to cope with a lot of criticism and ragequits that ruined my day.

If you want to set the pace of the run without being the tank, then setup your own party either with friends or in Party Finder, specifically requesting that the tank pace the run a certain way. Otherwise, deal with what you get in Duty Finder.

Personally, I take the view that there are a lot of roulettes for people to get through and as I get to decide whether the run is 16 minutes or 50 minutes, I choose to make it as efficient as I can for them by doing big pulls and DPSing bosses in all but leveling dungeons which are too heavily synced to be worth it. But it's the tank's choice.

Tanks have a lot of jobs the DPS don't have - enemy positioning, enmity management, cooldown management, tank busters, tank swaps, watching the groups health incase they need to adjust based on that - all whilst doing what DPS do... avoid things, DPS and hit damage cooldowns. It's an underappreciated role. As a tank 50% of people want you to do big pulls and 50% of people want you to do small pulls. 50% of people like you stance dancing and the other 50% will berate you for not being in tank stance, especially on EU DC. Tank life is a hard life.

Just like a tank shouldn't be removed for refusing to do big pulls, a healer shouldn't be removed for refusing to DPS and a DPS shouldn't be removed for refusing to AOE. It's their choice not to do these things if you were randomly matched with them in DF. If you created a Party Finder party and said they must do these things in the description, then it's different and you are then right to kick them if they don't.

[KingFrost]

Aren't "small" pulls just... ya know... regular pulls?

Also, what's actually being considered as bad in this thread? Doing regular pulls? Really? Out of all the things a tank can fail at, not pulling huge seems so insignificant to me.

I understand wanting to save time, but I'd never kick over this. I'd just enjoy my single target rotation and move on with having fun in the dungeon.

[KingFrost]

The essentials of big pulls?

[Feidam]

The weird thing is large pulls don’t necessarily speed up the dungeon. While i do agree that large pulls can help a tank learn proper cooldown usage tank anxiety is a problem that some folks have as well.

[WaterShield]

The weird thing is large pulls don’t necessarily speed up the dungeon. While i do agree that large pulls can help a tank learn proper cooldown usage tank anxiety is a problem that some folks have as well.

Objectively false. Aoe > single target... you literally surpass the damage you would be doing with smaller pulls... more damage faster = things die faster.... = dungeon done sooner.

[Feidam]

Objectively false. Aoe > single target... you literally surpass the damage you would be doing with smaller pulls... more damage faster = things die faster.... = dungeon done sooner.

Who said anything about single target And I also said necessarily not absolutely. As in there are times where they are a detriment. I’ve been groups where the pulls went flawlessly yay for us nice smooth run. I’ve been in groups where there they took longer to kill for whatever reason and small pulls should have been the way to go. So large pulls are not necessarily faster. Also you are not getting more damage from spells in large pulls. The potencies remain the same. What you are getting is the killing of more mobs in one go that could save a bit time as you are stopping less meaning being more efficient. Which in turn could lead to a faster run time assuming the kill rate is fast enough. Which usually happens with the level of gear we have the moment but doesn’t always. There are more variables to consider then large pulls only go!

[cicatriz313]

Who said anything about single target And I also said necessarily not absolutely. As in there are times where they are a detriment. I’ve been groups where the pulls went flawlessly yay for us nice smooth run. I’ve been in groups where there they took longer to kill for whatever reason and small pulls should have been the way to go. So large pulls are not necessarily faster. Also you are not getting more damage from spells in large pulls. The potencies remain the same. What you are getting is the killing of more mobs in one go that could save a bit time as you are stopping less meaning being more efficient. Which in turn could lead to a faster run time assuming the kill rate is fast enough. Which usually happens with the level of gear we have the moment but doesn’t always. There are more variables to consider then large pulls only go!

You are inherently getting more damage from large pulls though. That's how aoe works. If you hit 3 monsters for 200 potency each in an aoe, if you add more monsters to that with a larger pull, even if it does the 50% 30% etc thing some aoe does now, it will still be more damage per gcd. This will be even more true if say the single pull is 3 mobs and some people are doing single target rotations because it's better for their job. This is more damage for tanks, healers (if they know how to use their ogcds), and dps.