Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Fyce]

The group isn't entitled to jack schite. If you want to set the pace for a dungeon, then queue as a tank. They have that privilege and entitlement because it is a role with a lot of responsibility.

Most people go with it simply because it's convenient to do so. Not because it's a written rule.
Being a tank doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want and ignore the 3 other players in your party. And the excuse of the "muh responsabilities" is ridiculous, as the healer has more responsabilities than the tank in dungeons.

Also, adapting the size of your pulls to your party is part of your duty as a tank. If you don't do it thinking that you get to decide everything, then you make a case about healers and DPS being authorized to do the same given the realm of their "responsabilities".

What if you healer can't heal big pulls? Are you still going to pull too much and wipe "because I have responsabilities and I get to decide!"? I had a tank like that a few days ago. They got kicked in the blink of an eye. And rightfully so.

Tl;dr: being a tank doesn't allow you to be a jerk and ignore the rest of your party.

Edit: just to be clear, I main Warrior. And I set the pace according to my party's capabilities. Not because I'm a self-proclaimed selfish god who has the "privilege and entitlement" to decide everything based on my personal preferences.
You want to know why? Because I understand that this is a team game, and doing things for the party instead of for myself is the best way to achieve our common goal. The party would be more comfortable with small pulls? So be it. The party would be more comfortable with big pulls? So be it.
If you only decide based on your own wishes, then you're not only a bad tank, you're a bad team player. (This is a general rule of thumb. Exceptions exist.)

[Gemina]

Most people go with it simply because it's convenient to do so. Not because it's a written rule.
Being a tank doesn't give you the right to do whatever you want and ignore the 3 other players in your party. And the excuse of the "muh responsabilities" is ridiculous, as the healer has more responsabilities than the tank in dungeons.

Also, adapting the size of your pulls to your party is part of your duty as a tank. If you don't do it thinking that you get to decide everything, then you make a case about healers and DPS being authorized to do the same given the realm of their "responsabilities".

What if you healer can't heal big pulls? Are you still going to pull too much and wipe "because I have responsabilities and I get to decide!"? I had a tank like that a few days ago. They got kicked in the blink of an eye. And rightfully so.

Tl;dr: being a tank doesn't allow you to be a jerk and ignore the rest of your party.

Edit: just to be clear, I main Warrior. And I set the pace according to my party's capabilities. Not because I'm a self-proclaimed selfish god who has the "privilege and entitlement" to decide everything based on my personal preferences.
You want to know why? Because I understand that this is a team game, and doing things for the party instead of for myself is the best way to achieve our common goal. The party would be more comfortable with small pulls? So be it. The party would be more comfortable with big pulls? So be it.
If you only decide based on your own wishes, then you're not only a bad tank, you're a bad team player. (This is a general rule of thumb. Exceptions exist.)

It's a rule because the tank has the fattest HP pool, defense, and tools necessary to mitigate damage. It's not convenient; it's common sense. Those who feel otherwise are ignoring that rule, and/or lack common sense. What is truly an unwritten rule, is that tanks MUST pull large, or pull according to the strength of the party. THIS is the true convenience, because it takes an experienced tank not only with tanking, but the instance itself to be able to gauge the strength of the group.

I also don't want to hear anything about healers having more responsibility. It takes a dungeon like The Burn to even put any kind of pressure on experienced healers because healing is broken as eff right now. They get to DPS 90% of the time while sitting on their ogcds and regens. They have the most downtime out of the three roles. All players have a responsibility of staying out of the bad as best they can, and those who are really good at this make life even easier for a healer.

There can be a lot of reasons why a tank won't pull large, and at the very bottom of that list is, "Ima tank and a selfish prick. What I say goes!" And yeah, you were in the right for kicking a tank who pulled too much twice in a row without even checking with the healer. That's a lot different than kicking a tank because he/she doesn't pull enough. The former is a true detriment to the group, and putting unnecessary pressure on everyone.

[Fland]

It's a rule because the tank has the fattest HP pool, defense, and tools necessary to mitigate damage. It's not convenient; it's common sense. Those who feel otherwise are ignoring that rule, and/or lack common sense. What is truly an unwritten rule, is that tanks MUST pull large, or pull according to the strength of the party. THIS is the true convenience, because it takes an experienced tank not only with tanking, but the instance itself to be able to gauge the strength of the group.

I also don't want to hear anything about healers having more responsibility. It takes a dungeon like The Burn to even put any kind of pressure on experienced healers because healing is broken as eff right now. They get to DPS 90% of the time while sitting on their ogcds and regens. They have the most downtime out of the three roles. All players have a responsibility of staying out of the bad as best they can, and those who are really good at this make life even easier for a healer.

There can be a lot of reasons why a tank won't pull large, and at the very bottom of that list is, "Ima tank and a selfish prick. What I say goes!" And yeah, you were in the right for kicking a tank who pulled too much twice in a row without even checking with the healer. That's a lot different than kicking a tank because he/she doesn't pull enough. The former is a true detriment to the group, and putting unnecessary pressure on everyone.

How is try to adjust the pull to the strength of the party lacks common sense?

Healers don't have more responsibilities because they mostly DPS?
Then how about the tank who spends 90% of their time sitting on their DPS stance?

[Gemina]

How is try to adjust the pull to the strength of the party lacks common sense?

Healers don't have more responsibilities because they mostly DPS?
Then how about the tank who spends 90% of their time sitting on their DPS stance?

I never said adjusting to the strength of the party lacks common sense. I said tanks are under no obligation to do so. This is a courtesy, not a rule. A good and experienced tank will be able to gauge what the party is capable of, and pull accordingly. What is common sense is that it is the tank that determines the size of the pull. A DPS or healer can know that they are capable of bringing down more than one pack of mobs, and request the tank pull more, but ultimately it is up to him or her to do so. If they go on ahead and pull more mobs into the fray, they are NOT being courteous to the tank, and also making him/her feel like schite in the process.

Healers who DPS 90% of the time isn't the same as a tank who spends 90% of the time in DPS stance. However, both understand that the bare minimum their role requires allows them to contribute a modest amount of DPS to the group's overall damage. I might catch some flack from other healer mains for saying they have a smaller amount of responsibility, but the truth often hurts. Fact of the matter is they have the largest amount of downtime out of the three roles. If they are not contributing to damage, they would literally be standing around doing nothing with the exception of tossing a regen and an ogcd heal here and there; 90% of the time.

Much like large pulls from the tank, healer DPS is a courtesy to the other members of the group. It's not required of them, and there is no rule that forces them to do it. Kicking a tank for not doing large pulls is akin to kicking a healer for not DPSing. Both are only doing the group a disservice because now not only do they have to wait for another tank/healer to enter the queue; they also have to wait for one who happens to have PiP checked off in their duty finder.

[Awha]

What strikes me as odd is a group that is so willing to support a tank through larger pulls, completely changes their tone when he/she chooses not to comply. Talk about a two-faced group. You guys are/were so steadfast, that you were actually willing to take a disservice by having to wait around for another tank than just deal with smaller pulls. If I was that tank, I definitely would have blisted every single one of you after being kicked.

The group isn't entitled to jack schite. If you want to set the pace for a dungeon, then queue as a tank. They have that privilege and entitlement because it is a role with a lot of responsibility. Why do you think it's the least played role of the three? And you have to understand that crap like this is a big reason why they are the least played role, and will continue to be. Don't ever gripe about long DPS queues. I will be quick to bring up your OP if you do.

Not a 100% certain why you have such a hostile tone, this is simply a discussion agree or disagree we have no reason to be combative with one another. That said I was not part of the group that initiated the kick, I was simply the tank that filled in when the asked within our discord. That said this conversation came about due to debate that came about within our discord group. I do get where you are coming from, but at the very least I do hope you can see where I come from even if you do not agree with it. While I cannot say for those that removed the tank, if I were in their position I probably would have done the same, though it is hard for me for to empathizes with the tank that got removed since I have only ever played tanks, and I tend to be extremely compliant with what the group wants even if it ends in failure, since that is how I learn best trial and error.

Though I will say the group is entitled to each player trying within the best to at least try to conform with the group. In my opinion no player has the right to hold any individual play style over the heads of the group, be it lack of AoE, ice mage, melee rdm, eos only healing sch etc . . . to me all of these are no different from a tank that simply refuses to at the very least "TRY" step outside their comfort zone. I personally would never kick or remove someone for trying and failing, nor would I expect a group to match my pace if the overall group does not want to. For me the group is king, since it is a collective effort. For me the most important part is that they try, I get how that could seem like a demand since yes I would be more inclined to remove a player for not being willing to try, though it is not I just think it is unfair to think that one person should dictate what the group does.

In the end if I created the hostile tone in my head, that is how I imagined your post sounding in my head I apologize if this is wrong.

[Rongway]

In my opinion no player has the right to hold any individual play style over the heads of the group, be it lack of AoE, ice mage

Players are allowed to have basic expectations. Here are mine.

• Understand basic arithmetic and inequalities. e.g., 9x100 > 3x100 > 240
• Don't insult anyone.
• Don't purposely waste everyone's time.

DDs who refuse to AoE or who cast only ice spells fall into two categories.
(A) They don't understand which actions are more effective. If they are in this category, I will ask them to please AoE; or explain the basics of Astral Fire and Umbral Ice.
(B) They understand which actions are more effective but are willfully choosing not to use them. If they are in this category, they are purposely wasting everyone's time.

I'm not asking for 99th percentile play. Just that they don't sit there performing single target actions when they could be doing literally three times as much damage per GCD by AoEing. If they understand what actions are more effective, why would they not use the more effective actions.

That said, I probably wouldn't kick them unless they became hostile. I'd just sit there and judge them while I spam my 1200 potency actions.

[Awha]

Players are allowed to have basic expectations. Here are mine.

• Understand basic arithmetic and inequalities. e.g., 9x100 > 3x100 > 240
• Don't insult anyone.
• Don't purposely waste everyone's time.

DDs who refuse to AoE or who cast only ice spells fall into two categories.
(A) They don't understand which actions are more effective. If they are in this category, I will ask them to please AoE; or explain the basics of Astral Fire and Umbral Ice.
(B) They understand which actions are more effective but are willfully choosing not to use them. If they are in this category, they are purposely wasting everyone's time.

I'm not asking for 99th percentile play. Just don't sit there performing single target actions when you could be doing literally three times as much damage per GCD by AoEing. If you understand what actions are more effective, why would you not use the more effective actions.

I agree with you, if I was directly involved with the group in question before I filled in for the tank they removed all I would expect of them is to try.The important aspect for me is the ability to try. I do not care if someone tries and fails horribly, the fact they tried is all that matters. I will brick wall on the content for hours if need be if I genuinely feel the group is putting forth their best effort. Mainly that is where my confusion came from within the my discord group because people in said group were bashing those for removing the tank, yet they complain when they run into ice mages, non aoeing dps, melee rdm etc . . . and for me I see no difference between players like that not trying and sticking to what they feel comfortable with be for whatever reason and the tank in question not even trying to do larger pulls.

Granted I was not their so I can only go based off what they said in discord, so overall for everyone in the thread I apologize about the lack of details and missing context, was not present so only sense of context I get is from the players that were part of it.

I'm not advocating the bare minimum by any means, especially in an EX encounter but we're talking dungeons here. I am merely stating the facts, and even in a dungeon if a healer outright refuses to DPS when asked, then kicking them is only going to be a disservice because now you really can't pull large at all, and may not even be able to clear a boss depending on the encounter. PF is available if you want to create a group that must meet specific standards such as large pulls or healer DPS. This isn't what roulette is for though. You choose to roll roulette, you choose to roll with the punches. Simple as that. And complaints we wish to express about such encounters has a 2000+ page thread that most people go to when they want to vent instead of creating their own thread.

May I ask not sure if you have already answered it, but what you would say is a valid reason to use the vote kick feature? Should it only be used for extreme cases such as a someone going afk for an extended period of time? Someone being belligerent? Also this was not meant to be a vent thread more so a thread seeking differing views on the topic, since clearly people have differing views and I wanted to get a better understanding of every side.

[Gemina]

May I ask not sure if you have already answered it, but what you would say is a valid reason to use the vote kick feature? Should it only be used for extreme cases such as a someone going afk for an extended period of time? Someone being belligerent? Also this was not meant to be a vent thread more so a thread seeking differing views on the topic, since clearly people have differing views and I wanted to get a better understanding of every side.

I for one have never initiated a vote kick unless a player DCs. Even then, I'm aware that connections can be dodgy and have asked players to wait at least five minutes before kicking. That's not to say that I haven't dealt with toxic players. I've grouped up with some really rotten apples over the course of the three years I've played this game. I just understand that DF is a total roll of the dice, and if I feel that I am in a toxic environment, then I excuse myself from the duty and take the penalty. I have also never been kicked from any group.

However, the validity of the vote kick feature isn't my issue here. I think this group was within their rights to kick the tank, I just don't agree with it, and think it was really schitty. When I am dealing with high anxiety, or lack of confidence or something, I've always asked my FC to come along or created a PF explaining the situation if they were not available. It took me a really long time to hop into roulette as a tank without my FC or PF.

[Gemina]

Not a 100% certain why you have such a hostile tone, this is simply a discussion agree or disagree we have no reason to be combative with one another.

If you're reading my posts, it shouldn't be too difficult to know where the abrasiveness comes from. Though it is not my intention to come off as hostile or belligerent, I do feel the need to express myself vehemently to get a clear point across. Those points are that we have so few tanks as it is, and kicking one for the reluctance to do large pulls is unreasonable. Especially from a group who 180'd their tone towards this tank, showcasing that their request for the tank to pull large wasn't a request at all; it was a demand.

That said I was not part of the group that initiated the kick, I was simply the tank that filled in when the asked within our discord. That said this conversation came about due to debate that came about within our discord group. I do get where you are coming from, but at the very least I do hope you can see where I come from even if you do not agree with it. While I cannot say for those that removed the tank, if I were in their position I probably would have done the same, though it is hard for me for to empathizes with the tank that got removed since I have only ever played tanks, and I tend to be extremely compliant with what the group wants even if it ends in failure, since that is how I learn best trial and error.

From this statement, the impression I get is a group willing to boot a tank that did not conform to their demands because they had a backup ready to go. It makes me wonder why they didn't just ask you to tank for them in the first place, and just eliminate the possibility of getting a tank that does not suit their playstyle. If these cases are indeed true, I see you as an associate to their demeanor, and I feel really bad for the tank that got kicked as it very likely didn't make him or her feel any better about their tanking ability. Not all of us can just get up and brush ourselves off from failure, and wiping an entire party and knowing it is your fault isn't always going to be met with the enthusiasm of, "Hey, we tried. No big deal." That tank that got kicked could just have likely came from a party where they were scorned for trying a large pull. We just don't know, except for him/her, and we'll never know.

I do see your side of things, and I know there are things that are not as black and white as I am making them out to be. However, I will never condone behavior that discourages the few tanks we already have. But I also don't encourage bare minimum play, and always believe players should strive to increase their skill. But this isn't something I can force. A player has to want to be better.

Though I will say the group is entitled to each player trying within the best to at least try to conform with the group. In my opinion no player has the right to hold any individual play style over the heads of the group, be it lack of AoE, ice mage, melee rdm, eos only healing sch etc . . . to me all of these are no different from a tank that simply refuses to at the very least "TRY" step outside their comfort zone. I personally would never kick or remove someone for trying and failing, nor would I expect a group to match my pace if the overall group does not want to. For me the group is king, since it is a collective effort. For me the most important part is that they try, I get how that could seem like a demand since yes I would be more inclined to remove a player for not being willing to try, though it is not I just think it is unfair to think that one person should dictate what the group does.

In this case, that one person is the tank. The least played role in this game. They are going to have more entitlement than a healer or DPS simply due to the nature of their role. In a dungeon scenario, they manage the entire thing, and the expectations of them are much higher than any other role; the spotlight is totally on them, and everyone tends to look in their direction should a wipe happen unless it is clear the healer derped, or a DPS check is not met.

I can't even begin to tell you how many bad tanks I've had in my roulettes when going as healer or DPS, but small pulls, though frustrating, has never been a reason that makes me think this player feels entitled and can do whatever the hell they want. You can't force someone out of their comfort zone. They have to want to, and have some level of confidence doing so. The fact that they even queued up as a tank alone might have already taken this player out of their comfort zone.

In the end if I created the hostile tone in my head, that is how I imagined your post sounding in my head I apologize if this is wrong.

I don't think you're entirely wrong and understand why you get this impression. Hopefully I was able to provide some insight and clarification as to why I do come off that way. I truly don't mean to paint you black, and definitely understand your PoV. I do apologize for coming off so harshly and appreciate that you have chosen to see my side of things despite this.

[Awha]

Snip . . .

Overall I highly doubt they removed the tank because they had a tank in waiting, I have my status as offline most the time in discord and it was sort of late so I do not think they thought that far ahead. That said I do understand where you are coming from, but maybe it is because I mostly play tank roles I do not see myself as deserving of special treatment because my role may be less common. What confuses me slightly is your view seems to be based around a decent amount of what if's, what if they came from a bad group, had poor experience in the past, suffer from anxiety. Rarity of role is really enough of a reason to provide such consideration to a player of said role over any other role. Since as you said we will not know, if we do not know why should that matter? For all we know they were okay with being removed being as they were a tank and could instantly queue up and properly got a pop fairly quickly. Maybe in I am in the wrong for not viewing myself a tank and inherently more valuable since supply currently does not meet the demand. Just that mindset does not mesh well with me, and it always bugged me when people would tell me that in novice network when I first started. Hell, I had one mentor tell me to not even worry about what the group wants, as the tank you are the boss. Just seems counter intuitive in group based content.