Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Veis_Alveare]

This whole debate is ridiculous tbh.
If you're in a premade, you generally have a good idea of the capacity of all your team members. Do/pull as you like, since you know the others are able to keep up.

In duty finder, with varying degrees of skill and setup, make an effort to adjust. When you're going into duty finder, you are consenting to having your gameplay experience completely in the hands of the rest of the group, and if you aren't comfortable enough with that to play accordingly (someone has got to give and frankly if you're reading this thread right now, it's most likely going to be you), then don't play in the duty finder.
People in duty finder are never going to learn or improve their skills while you're playing with them for any reason and you have to learn to live with it and accept it, or do something else.

Because let's be clear: When you queue up with randoms for duty finder, you choose to have your time wasted by a potentially terrible group. Live with your choices.

There's a fun thought experiment where you can test the validity of your argument if it holds up just as well when you replace your premise with that of your opposition.

Yours literally works exactly the same whether you're applying it to a bad tank who doesn't want to pull normally or a party who kicks them.

[Paladinleeds]

This whole debate is ridiculous tbh.
If you're in a premade, you generally have a good idea of the capacity of all your team members. Do/pull as you like, since you know the others are able to keep up.

In duty finder, with varying degrees of skill and setup, make an effort to adjust. When you're going into duty finder, you are consenting to having your gameplay experience completely in the hands of the rest of the group, and if you aren't comfortable enough with that to play accordingly (someone has got to give and frankly if you're reading this thread right now, it's most likely going to be you), then don't play in the duty finder.
People in duty finder are never going to learn or improve their skills while you're playing with them for any reason and you have to learn to live with it and accept it, or do something else.

Because let's be clear: When you queue up with randoms for duty finder, you choose to have your time wasted by a potentially terrible group. Live with your choices.

This whole debate is ridiculous tbh.
If you're in a premade, you generally have a good idea of the capacity of all your team members. Do/pull as you like, since you know the others are able to keep up.

In duty finder, with varying degrees of skill and setup, make an effort to adjust. When you're going into duty finder, you are consenting to having your gameplay experience completely in the hands of the rest of the group, and if you aren't comfortable enough with that to play accordingly (someone has got to give and frankly if you're reading this thread right now, it's most likely going to be you), then don't play in the duty finder.
People in duty finder are never going to learn or improve their skills while you're playing with them for any reason and you have to learn to live with it and accept it, or do something else.

Because let's be clear: When you queue up with randoms for duty finder, you choose to have your time potentially wasted by a really good group who are not willing to put up with your slacking given that GMs have stated time and time again that "Differences in playstyle" (for example, a tank who won't mass pull vs the rest of the group wanting the fast pulls) is a valid reason for kick, as long as players don't shout obsceneties or insult you. Live with your choices.

Oh, and before you slam me for being as bad as the rest of them, I am perfectly OK with people taking it slower, but majority wins. If they're not being abusive as a player (e.g. tank doing small pulls but not being abusive when asked to try bigger pulls), chances are I won't vote yes for the kick either. I'm just saying, it applies in reverse too.

[Feidam]

If you remove the outliers of those that will 100% expect or refuse to do X (small or large pulls). I wonder how many tanks refuse to try because of the way they were asked to do X or how they have been treated in the past. I’ve seen some really bad behavior on both sides. Hell look at some of the attitudes in this thread. A little understanding in the way things are communicated could go a long way. We can have expectations but we can not forget the human component either. A little understanding could help bring about the outcome the majority expects. Sadly, I already hear the comments of “it’s not my job”.

[reivaxe]

The only way I've been able to tank in this game is by going full "screw you, I do what I want".

That's not to say I'm rigid and unchanging, I change it up all the time. I believe being a good tank in part requires you to have a sense of what can and can't be done at the pace you want. Notice that a healer let you die or get too close to it on a big pull? Slow it down. Healer oom after a pull and you're about to enter another room? Give em time. Notice that it takes forever to kill a reg sized pull because 1 of your dps is a book boosted lvl 70 blm with all broken gear who doesn't know how his job works cause he's only been playing for 2 weeks? Slow it down even if the healer whines.

I try to know fights when going into any boss or raid or dng. I try to explain when things go wrong. If Imma pull the whole damn floor cause I know it can be done I'll ask the healer if they're ok with that before hand and act accordingly. Most will say go for it but sometimes you get ones who aren't as confident.

That being said, I don't allow people to force me into a faster pace. Believe me, if I can pull all the things at once I'm down to do it cause I find trash mobs to be annoying af and I want out asap ... But a dps running ahead to drag something to me? Hope you like tanking that.

So yeah, if setting the pace for and encounter is a part if the tanks job and someone doesnt like it then maybe they should tank instead, so that they can set the pace they desire.

[Fyce]

The only way I've been able to tank in this game is by going full "screw you, I do what I want".

That's not to say I'm rigid and unchanging, I change it up all the time. I believe being a good tank in part requires you to have a sense of what can and can't be done at the pace you want. Notice that a healer let you die or get too close to it on a big pull? Slow it down. Healer oom after a pull and you're about to enter another room? Give em time. Notice that it takes forever to kill a reg sized pull because 1 of your dps is a book boosted lvl 70 blm with all broken gear who doesn't know how his job works cause he's only been playing for 2 weeks? Slow it down even if the healer whines.

I try to know fights when going into any boss or raid or dng. I try to explain when things go wrong. If Imma pull the whole damn floor cause I know it can be done I'll ask the healer if they're ok with that before hand and act accordingly. Most will say go for it but sometimes you get ones who aren't as confident.

That being said, I don't allow people to force me into a faster pace. Believe me, if I can pull all the things at once I'm down to do it cause I find trash mobs to be annoying af and I want out asap ... But a dps running ahead to drag something to me? Hope you like tanking that.

So yeah, if setting the pace for and encounter is a part if the tanks job and someone doesnt like it then maybe they should tank instead, so that they can set the pace they desire.

I'm having a hard time understanding your position. On one hand you seem to be quite adaptative to your group's desires and skills as the second and third paragraphs show, but on the other you say stuff like "screw you, I do what I want" and "I don't allow people to force me into a faster pace", or even "someone doesnt like it then maybe they should tank instead". It seems like you're basically saying "I'm gonna do my best to achieve what I think is good for the party, but don't ever tell me what to do 'cause I'm your boss and I get to decide!".

So, I have to agree with the case of the sole DPS going to pull stuff on their own, and the way you adapt to your party. But I'm going to say that I disagree with the part that implies that tanks get to decide the pace of the dungeon for the entire group (if that wasn't what you implied, then I'm sorry, just consider the rest of this post as a general statement about that implication). The group as a whole definitly has a say in how fast should things go. If 3 out of 4 people want the run to be faster (like in the OP's case), and nothing objectively prevents it, then so be it. If you go "screw you, I do what I want", it's not much better than what the "you don't pay my sub" crowd is doing.
Doing a dungeon is a team effort. Being selfish in that environment is counter productive and has a high chance of people making you have a taste of your own medicine ("Oh, YOU decide the pace of the pulls? Then I decide the pace of the heals. Have fun dying alone.")

It's not because -most of the time- people just silently go with the tank's pace that they can't raise their voice or that the tank can go "it's my job and my job only, you don't have a say in that". That default situation is not an admission that the tank is an "indisputable leader" that can shut anyone down because "it's my responsability so screw you, I do what I want".
So, in a sense, no, the tank doesn't decide the pace of the run alone. It's just that most people don't care, in which case it become the tank's burden. But it's just that, a burden. Not an indisputable entitlement or priviledge to be a diva like some people in this thread think. And when people do care and speak up, then the tank has the same weight in the decision as any other party member.
And if the situation is irreconcilable, then the votekick feature can be used. Especially if it's 3v1.

[Physic]

If you remove the outliers of those that will 100% expect or refuse to do X (small or large pulls). I wonder how many tanks refuse to try because of the way they were asked to do X or how they have been treated in the past. I’ve seen some really bad behavior on both sides. Hell look at some of the attitudes in this thread. A little understanding in the way things are communicated could go a long way. We can have expectations but we can not forget the human component either. A little understanding could help bring about the outcome the majority expects. Sadly, I already hear the comments of “it’s not my job”.

Many people who will kick you for being slow, will kick you for failing large pulls as well. At the end of the day they are kicking you for what, they consider to be, you being substandard. I have seen people intiate vote kicks on wipes many times.

small pull is a relative term as well btw. Some people in thread believe in wall to wall pulls, which is sometimes 3-4 groups.

At this point its whatever, i think many people here are exaggerating how much they kick because they love the idea of kicking people more than they do actually kicking people. The truth is i havent seen massive amounts of kicks, and kicks also fail a lot. As long as it doesnt become prolific in the actual game, a few hotheads will just be an annoyance.

I personally think its a jerk move to queue into the neighborhood park, and start kicking people for not being pros, but if SE makes something possible, some people will do it.

[Physic]

I'm having a hard time understanding your position. On one hand you seem to be quite adaptative to your group's desires and skills as the second and third paragraphs show, but on the other you say stuff like "screw you, I do what I want" and "I don't allow people to force me into a faster pace", or even "someone doesnt like it then maybe they should tank instead". It seems like you're basically saying "I'm gonna do my best to achieve what I think is good for the party, but don't ever tell me what to do 'cause I'm your boss and I get to decide!".

So, I have to agree with the case of the sole DPS going to pull stuff on their own, and the way you adapt to your party. But I'm going to say that I disagree with the part that implies that tanks get to decide the pace of the dungeon for the entire group (if that wasn't what you implied, then I'm sorry, just consider the rest of this post as a general statement about that implication). The group as a whole definitly has a say in how fast should things go. If 3 out of 4 people want the run to be faster (like in the OP's case), and nothing objectively prevents it, then so be it. If you go "screw you, I do what I want", it's not much better than what the "you don't pay my sub" crowd is doing.
Doing a dungeon is a team effort. Being selfish in that environment is counter productive and has a high chance of people making you have a taste of your own medicine ("Oh, YOU decide the pace of the pulls? Then I decide the pace of the heals. Have fun dying alone.")

It's not because -most of the time- people just silently go with the tank's pace that they can't raise their voice or that the tank can go "it's my job and my job only, you don't have a say in that". That default situation is not an admission that the tank is an "indisputable leader" that can shut anyone down because "it's my responsability so screw you, I do what I want".
So, in a sense, no, the tank doesn't decide the pace of the run alone. It's just that most people don't care, in which case it become the tank's burden. But it's just that, a burden. Not an indisputable entitlement or priviledge to be a diva like some people in this thread think. And when people do care and speak up, then the tank has the same weight in the decision as any other party member.
And if the situation is irreconcilable, then the votekick feature can be used. Especially if it's 3v1.

he is adaptive, but he isnt doing what people want, he is doing what he feels needs to be done. If he thinks pulling more is ineffecient, he will pull less, regardless of what dps X says. Or healer Y.

He is saying setting the pace is the tanks job, And he makes the executive decisions of how that plays out. And truely, he is probably right.

The idea that the will of 50% of the party who initiates a kick is guaranteed to be the riteous, fair, or optimal thing to do is inaccurate.

[Nethereal]

If you're not pulling at least two groups(6-8 monsters) in 51+ dungeons, we're gunna have a problem.

[Xbob42]

I dunno, while I'm all for going fast when tanking, the fact that the majority of my raiding experience in every MMO has been waiting for the friggin' DPS to learn that they have to prioritize getting out of crap before getting their finishers off or whatever, it's a little ironic in my eyes that they'd demand that someone else should move at their pace.

I swear to god if a meteor was being shot out of your computer monitor in real life a Black Mage still wouldn't move.

[Feidam]

I dunno, while I'm all for going fast when tanking, the fact that the majority of my raiding experience in every MMO has been waiting for the friggin' DPS to learn that they have to prioritize getting out of crap before getting their finishers off or whatever, it's a little ironic in my eyes that they'd demand that someone else should move at their pace.

I swear to god if a meteor was being shot out of your computer monitor in real life a Black Mage still wouldn't move.

Well to be fair some of what makes a blm great is learning the timing of moving at the last minute to get as many casts off as possible. Hopefully they help alleviate this in the expansion because most don’t seem to learn this. I’m still hit or miss with it myself. The other part is trying to keep that enochian up for some folks.