Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Kaedan]

the content is not what determines a kick. the party is the ones kicking you, not the group. if they dont want to play with someone, even in the situation in the OP, they don't have to. thats what the kick and leave functions are for. differences in playstyle has been cited multiple times as a valid reason to kick another party member.

perhaps the emphasis of "any expectation" is hyperbole but still expectations are not being met and i feel that honestly by level 70 the excuse of being inexperienced does not hold.

The bolded line in your response is simply not true. The kick system is very often abused and used for harassment purposes. There are hundreds and thousands of valid reports and punishments made for people unreasonably kicking someone from a group (especially if the non-kicked members are pre-made).

Yes, you are correct that kicking someone =/= harassment... necessarily. But it can be, and often is.

The situation outlined by the OP is not one in which the tank was being unreasonable, and there was no valid reason to kick the tank. And frankly, that is the entire point of this thread. Not whether there are or are not situations where kicking is acceptable (that's quite obvious that there are).


There is a such thing as expectations being objectively too high. And this is one of those. It's not like the tank was losing threat constantly or dying constantly or afking. All he was doing is going a tiny bit slower than he possibly could have (large group pulling actually doesn't shave that much time off your dungeon run, btw).

When you see the "there is someone who hasn't done this dungeon before" message pop up, and it's the tank, do you immediately kick them? If not, that right there is a reasonable example of an inexperienced tank at level 70.

[cicatriz313]

When you see the "there is someone who hasn't done this dungeon before" message pop up, and it's the tank, do you immediately kick them? If not, that right there is a reasonable example of an inexperienced tank at level 70.

Why would you kick someone for not having done a dungeon before? Not sure if we are playing the same game, but most 4 man dungeons since like the hard modes at level 50 have been easy to pull to the wall and aoe. I think that's what their point is, at level 70 you know that's the norm and inexperience isn't really the excuse anymore. There's plenty of other excuses, bad gear, bad healer, refusal to do it because "you don't pay my sub" etc but experience only really matters for boss fights in these dungeons. As for your point about it not being a valid reason to kick the tank, the group asked the tank to pull more and said they were had his back, tank refused flat out, group imo had every right to remove him and roll the roulette again. I wouldn't personally because who knows how long that'd take to replace a tank, but I think whether it's reasonable or not is up to that individual.

[Kaedan]

Why would you kick someone for not having done a dungeon before? Not sure if we are playing the same game, but most 4 man dungeons since like the hard modes at level 50 have been easy to pull to the wall and aoe. I think that's what their point is, at level 70 you know that's the norm and inexperience isn't really the excuse anymore. There's plenty of other excuses, bad gear, bad healer, refusal to do it because "you don't pay my sub" etc but experience only really matters for boss fights in these dungeons. As for your point about it not being a valid reason to kick the tank, the group asked the tank to pull more and said they were had his back, tank refused flat out, group imo had every right to remove him and roll the roulette again. I wouldn't personally because who knows how long that'd take to replace a tank, but I think whether it's reasonable or not is up to that individual.

My point was that any reasonable person WOULDN'T kick a tank from the group simply for it being their first time running the dungeon. And that's an example of a level 70 being (reasonably) inexperienced and perhaps wanting to only take it 1 group at a time rather than 2-3.

[cicatriz313]

My point was that any reasonable person WOULDN'T kick a tank from the group simply for it being their first time running the dungeon. And that's an example of a level 70 being (reasonably) inexperienced and perhaps wanting to only take it 1 group at a time rather than 2-3.

I mean you keep using reasonable, which is entirely subjective, and I happen to disagree with your assessment. Like I said, at level 70 it's pretty obvious that all dungeons are easy to do in mass pulls and therefore it's also "reasonable" to expect that and kick someone who refuses to try if asked. Also, though, I don't think the OP mentioned the dungeon having a first timer bonus so considering you said to keep it to the OP's scenario, this probably isn't relevant.

Edit: Also I dunno how anyone can say that mass pulls with aoe are somehow the same or slower than single pulling, like it's simple math 99% of the time. Saying one particular pull because of extremely large monsters which push the others around is enough to negate that is just ridiculous.

[OcieKo]

I mean you keep using reasonable, which is entirely subjective

And the crux of the issue. The baseline reasonable is being left in a gray area which does no one any good. It's like when people whine when Yoshi says "We design the game with the intention that healers only have to heal." A collection of people dislike it, but it is a baseline provided by the developer, while it won't hold up to full pre-mades, for the purpose of random matchmaking its a baseline that can be used. The part where no baseline is provided for tanks and DPS short of not actively doing something that prevents progress, which here is being used as "anything I dislike, but does not hinder completion, just makes it debatable on clear speed." Also an acceptable clear speed is in place for all content, given that if you surpass that number the entire group is kicked out. Don't get me wrong, I'll leave most outdated content long before I hit that timer, but still.

Maybe, but in this case they had the rights to do so.

It was not, AFK, Offline, Cheating, or Harassment. The intent was to make progress, clear the dungeon, and do the necessary functions of the job. Any of those 4 reports would be wrong, since none of those were occurring in the situation of the kicked party according to the premise provided.

[Fyce]

It was not, AFK, Offline, Cheating, or Harassment. The intent was to make progress, clear the dungeon, and do the necessary functions of the job. Any of those 4 reports would be wrong, since none of those were occurring in the situation of the kicked party according to the premise provided.

Ever since "differences in playstyle" appeared as a valid reason for kicking, these four options that never got updated were pretty much irrelevant.
By the way, these options are different in other languages, showing how useless this selection of options is.

[Kaedan]

I mean you keep using reasonable, which is entirely subjective

Reason is not subjective.

Edit: Also I dunno how anyone can say that mass pulls with aoe are somehow the same or slower than single pulling, like it's simple math 99% of the time. Saying one particular pull because of extremely large monsters which push the others around is enough to negate that is just ridiculous.

Because they can be. Depends on the situation. And in general, mass pulling doesn't actually save that much time at all. It's like the people who speed 10 miles over the speed limit... when the reality is they are only getting to their destination 2 minutes earlier than the guy who went speed limit (yes, that is a proven fact).

To give you just a few examples of how single group pulling can be just as fast, with single group pulling, the healer can use more GCD's for DPS than they can during mass pulls. Furthermore, despite your false claim otherwise, positioning (due to hit boxes, size of pull, etc) can be a big issue that causes significant dps loss. Even party job make-up can be a big factor, as some jobs simply aren't good for AoE.

Fact of the matter is that mass group pulling is NOT objectively better/faster in every situation. It always depends, and in most cases the difference in clear time is insignificant (2-5 minutes at most).

again, not liking something doesnt mean you were harassed. they were not sworn at, belittled, trolled, called slurs, stalked, or anything else in that realm as far as OP tells it.

But this has nothing to do with "not liking something". He was harassed because he was kicked for no valid reason. That, in and of itself, is harassment.

[OcieKo]

Reason is not subjective.




Because they can be. Depends on the situation. And in general, mass pulling doesn't actually save that much time at all. It's like the people who speed 10 miles over the speed limit... when the reality is they are only getting to their destination 2 minutes earlier than the guy who went speed limit (yes, that is a proven fact).

To give you just a few examples of how single group pulling can be just as fast, with single group pulling, the healer can use more GCD's for DPS than they can during mass pulls. Furthermore, despite your false claim otherwise, positioning (due to hit boxes, size of pull, etc) can be a big issue that causes significant dps loss. Even party job make-up can be a big factor, as some jobs simply aren't good for AoE.

Fact of the matter is that mass group pulling is NOT objectively better/faster in every situation. It always depends, and in most cases the difference in clear time is insignificant (2-5 minutes at most).

2nd Part, I'm with you.

1st part is objectively wrong, by it's very nature reason is subjective, even more-so is the term reasonable. Even if we get a baseline "reasonable" play from the developers for this purpose, that baseline reasonable was subjective to the collective views of the developers that they would be willing to enforce. While objectively usable as a standard to work from, the view itself is subjective.
Keep in mind the western basis for logic and reason was at one point subjectively legitimately considered crazy and madness by the majority of the populace.

[cicatriz313]

Because they can be. Depends on the situation. And in general, mass pulling doesn't actually save that much time at all. It's like the people who speed 10 miles over the speed limit... when the reality is they are only getting to their destination 2 minutes earlier than the guy who went speed limit (yes, that is a proven fact).

To give you just a few examples of how single group pulling can be just as fast, with single group pulling, the healer can use more GCD's for DPS than they can during mass pulls. Furthermore, despite your false claim otherwise, positioning (due to hit boxes, size of pull, etc) can be a big issue that causes significant dps loss. Even party job make-up can be a big factor, as some jobs simply aren't good for AoE.

Fact of the matter is that mass group pulling is NOT objectively better/faster in every situation. It always depends, and in most cases the difference in clear time is insignificant (2-5 minutes at most)..

Reasonable is subjective, it's inherently subjective because it's based on someone's own judgment. Like come on lol. Also of course it'll differ depending on job makeup and such, but grouping things up and hitting for thousands of potency each global is inherently better than the alternative. MOST dungeons don't have monsters big enough to make aoe not viable, in fact I would say even the ones that do you're STILL hitting enough mobs to make it better. Also your point about healers is false because healers that are comfortable enough to dps will be comfortable enough to aoe dps which again, is flat out better, and in some cases (whm/sch/ast stun) can even help with mitigation. I didn't say it was objectively better in every situation, I said most situations, funny you'd resort to a strawman after complaining about it. Like there are entire guides on when aoe is better and why on the balance discord and most of the time it's like 4+ for globals. Anything higher than that is just added bonus. And the whole "2-5 minutes at most" is debatable for sure, but also 2-5 minutes in every single duty you do while playing this game adds up and is therefore significant.

[Kaedan]

Also your point about healers is false because healers that are comfortable enough to dps will be comfortable enough to aoe dps which again, is flat out better, and in some cases (whm/sch/ast stun) can even help with mitigation.

I don't think you're understanding. The healer is required to spend more GCDs on healing during a mass pull than they are for single pulls. That's how the mechanics work... the tank is taking significantly more damage in a mass pull than single pull, so more GCDs are used for healing. In single group pull, the healer can spend more GCDs on dps. This isn't about whether or not a healer is "comfortable"... it's simply math and mechanics. The only exception might be if the tank is DRK if they are very experienced and use the proper rotation.