Tank entitlement vs group entitlement

[Fland]

The situation outlined by the OP is not one in which the tank was being unreasonable, and there was no valid reason to kick the tank. And frankly, that is the entire point of this thread. Not whether there are or are not situations where kicking is acceptable (that's quite obvious that there are).


There is a such thing as expectations being objectively too high. And this is one of those. It's not like the tank was losing threat constantly or dying constantly or afking. All he was doing is going a tiny bit slower than he possibly could have (large group pulling actually doesn't shave that much time off your dungeon run, btw).

When you see the "there is someone who hasn't done this dungeon before" message pop up, and it's the tank, do you immediately kick them? If not, that right there is a reasonable example of an inexperienced tank at level 70.

Was the tank new and inexperienced in OP's case?
They didn't elaborate on that.

But even if the tank was new, they didn't just immediately kick them. They ask them to do larger pulls and ensured them that it would be fine if it wouldn't go smoothly, but the tank didn't even bother to try. We didn't know how the tank actually responded when asked.

[OcieKo]

Apparently we're simply not going to agree on this point. I think a group who would kick a tank for pulling 1 group at a time rather than 2-3 is petty, immature, irrational, and lacks even the basic modicum of patience and understanding. And since the tank wasn't doing anything against the rules and was playing perfectly within the bounds of acceptable behavior in the dungeon, kicking him was flat out harassment.

Like I said, he wasn't losing threat or constantly dying or making mistakes that caused significant wastes of time. In fact, pulling 1 group at a time rather than 2-3 would have only cost the group about 2-5 minutes of playtime (yes, that's the average time saved by large group pulling).

^^ I can chain pull most dungeons in under 25m depending on the group setup, I find AoEing takes longer, more wipes, more "I'm out of TP/MP", also its boring AF. But I'm just a weird dude who likes to have fun playing video games, not play em like I'm a salesman working on 100% commission.

Was the tank new and inexperienced in OP's case?
They didn't elaborate on that.

But even if the tank was new, they didn't just immediately kick them. They ask them to do larger pulls and ensured them that it would be fine if it wouldn't go smoothly, but the tank didn't even bother to try. We didn't know how the tank actually responded when asked.

Only thing known about tank response was refusal to do larger pulls, no context seems to have been given about the tanks, skill level, gear, game experience, new status etc. And context of groups thoughts can be considered to be anywhere between polite and downright rude/demeaning with the goal of "do big pulls anyways" being the only definitive thing, as no further details were given other than "context missing".

[Tellciel]

Rule number 1. Tank you very much.
Rule number 2. Heal-u-all and be humble.
Rule number 3. Dam-I need to shut up and wait in Queue longer. { DPS }

[cicatriz313]

My point was that any reasonable person WOULDN'T kick a tank from the group simply for it being their first time running the dungeon. And that's an example of a level 70 being (reasonably) inexperienced and perhaps wanting to only take it 1 group at a time rather than 2-3.

I mean you keep using reasonable, which is entirely subjective, and I happen to disagree with your assessment. Like I said, at level 70 it's pretty obvious that all dungeons are easy to do in mass pulls and therefore it's also "reasonable" to expect that and kick someone who refuses to try if asked. Also, though, I don't think the OP mentioned the dungeon having a first timer bonus so considering you said to keep it to the OP's scenario, this probably isn't relevant.

Edit: Also I dunno how anyone can say that mass pulls with aoe are somehow the same or slower than single pulling, like it's simple math 99% of the time. Saying one particular pull because of extremely large monsters which push the others around is enough to negate that is just ridiculous.

[Nyvara]

Rule number 1. Tank you very much.
Rule number 2. Heal-u-all and be humble.
Rule number 3. Dam-I need to shut up and wait in Queue longer. { DPS }

This whole thread reminds me why DPS queues are so long. :P

It also seems to me with the NA server split coming up we are ALL going to have to become more adaptive since we will likely be seeing a whole lot more of each other.

[Wolfman88]

This kind of unnecessary heat is why people refuse to play tank classes. Yes, tanks have to perform just like any other class and just like any other job there are people who perform better than others. Tanks get ‘special treatment’ because there isn’t many that can handle this kind of pressure (if you even want to call it that).

Because people put this pressure on tanks is why warriors have the “diva” image with their dps. If it wasn’t for warrior being in the state they are in right now, tank players would probably have been even less than they are now. It is because tanks have these expectations, fair or unfair, is the reason tanks can get away with a little bit more than healers and dps.

[Fyce]

just because majority has the power to do something doesnt mean they were right to do so.

Maybe, but in this case they had the rights to do so.

[OcieKo]

I mean you keep using reasonable, which is entirely subjective

And the crux of the issue. The baseline reasonable is being left in a gray area which does no one any good. It's like when people whine when Yoshi says "We design the game with the intention that healers only have to heal." A collection of people dislike it, but it is a baseline provided by the developer, while it won't hold up to full pre-mades, for the purpose of random matchmaking its a baseline that can be used. The part where no baseline is provided for tanks and DPS short of not actively doing something that prevents progress, which here is being used as "anything I dislike, but does not hinder completion, just makes it debatable on clear speed." Also an acceptable clear speed is in place for all content, given that if you surpass that number the entire group is kicked out. Don't get me wrong, I'll leave most outdated content long before I hit that timer, but still.

Maybe, but in this case they had the rights to do so.

It was not, AFK, Offline, Cheating, or Harassment. The intent was to make progress, clear the dungeon, and do the necessary functions of the job. Any of those 4 reports would be wrong, since none of those were occurring in the situation of the kicked party according to the premise provided.

[Mavrias]

Apparently we're simply not going to agree on this point. I think a group who would kick a tank for pulling 1 group at a time rather than 2-3 is petty, immature, irrational, and lacks even the basic modicum of patience and understanding. And since the tank wasn't doing anything against the rules and was playing perfectly within the bounds of acceptable behavior in the dungeon, kicking him was flat out harassment.

Like I said, he wasn't losing threat or constantly dying or making mistakes that caused significant wastes of time. In fact, pulling 1 group at a time rather than 2-3 would have only cost the group about 2-5 minutes of playtime (yes, that's the average time saved by large group pulling).



That's another good point. Single group chain pulling can be just as fast as large group pulling as well. From experience, I've found that single pulling certain groups in The Burn actually makes the run go faster than wall pulling.

i'm aware of the time difference between big and small pulls, you really dont have to keep saying it.

if theyre as terrible as you say then the tank should count their blessings that they were removed from the group and can queue immediately to a potentially more receptive party with zero penalty, no?

again, not liking something doesnt mean you were harassed. they were not sworn at, belittled, trolled, called slurs, stalked, or anything else in that realm as far as OP tells it.

we dont have to agree. thats the beauty of having a discussion about video games. it costs us nothing to disagree.

[Kaedan]

I mean you keep using reasonable, which is entirely subjective

Reason is not subjective.

Edit: Also I dunno how anyone can say that mass pulls with aoe are somehow the same or slower than single pulling, like it's simple math 99% of the time. Saying one particular pull because of extremely large monsters which push the others around is enough to negate that is just ridiculous.

Because they can be. Depends on the situation. And in general, mass pulling doesn't actually save that much time at all. It's like the people who speed 10 miles over the speed limit... when the reality is they are only getting to their destination 2 minutes earlier than the guy who went speed limit (yes, that is a proven fact).

To give you just a few examples of how single group pulling can be just as fast, with single group pulling, the healer can use more GCD's for DPS than they can during mass pulls. Furthermore, despite your false claim otherwise, positioning (due to hit boxes, size of pull, etc) can be a big issue that causes significant dps loss. Even party job make-up can be a big factor, as some jobs simply aren't good for AoE.

Fact of the matter is that mass group pulling is NOT objectively better/faster in every situation. It always depends, and in most cases the difference in clear time is insignificant (2-5 minutes at most).

again, not liking something doesnt mean you were harassed. they were not sworn at, belittled, trolled, called slurs, stalked, or anything else in that realm as far as OP tells it.

But this has nothing to do with "not liking something". He was harassed because he was kicked for no valid reason. That, in and of itself, is harassment.