How to give advice

[JohnSeal]

Screeching 'it's not savage let them be bad' is the reason we have sub 2k dps walking into Savage now confused as to why people are frustrated with them and removing them from parties.

Levelling,50/60 and 70 dangeouns ARE training grounds, and to do savage competence and practice IS A MUST.
If you don’t have enough practice and can’t play well with your class, you should not play savage just for a matter of respect to others. But at low level I don’t think high competency is required and how I said there is a difference between give suggestions and bossy people. The way you formulate sentence makes the difference often.
The op like many others can learn time by time and no need of pressure.

Anyway you don’t need to be a genius or have orange logs to play good runs in savage but it more a matter of practice, you can have the perfect rotation but are not able to dodge so you fail but you can fix that with practise. Same concept for DPS performances, you can improve little by little, run after run as far as you start from a good basic level of knowledge. Nobody is a champions on the first clear.
As a main healer like me you can agree that or performance depends by other performances, less mistakes from party members, better tanks means better scores.
2 k DPS as you say are rare like 1 in a 1000 and mostly people jumping in with no training at all.

[Vidu]

Levelling,50/60 and 70 dangeouns ARE training grounds, and to do savage competence and practice IS A MUST.
If you don’t have enough practice and can’t play well with your class, you should not play savage just for a matter of respect to others. But at low level I don’t think high competency is required and how I said there is a difference between give suggestions and bossy people. The way you formulate sentence makes the difference often.
The op like many others can learn time by time and no need of pressure.

Knowing the difference between an AoE-spell and a ST-spell is "high competency"?
In my book, its not - its part of the very basic-concept and required knowledge as DPS, just how it is very basic and required knowledge as healer to be aware how your healing-spells work and for a tank to know how to hold aggro and how to use cooldowns.

Learning and practising is okay in leveling dungeons, yes - but please show me that you're doing that or I'll give you the needed hint. If someone is casting Thunder IV on a ST repeatedly, chances are that they either never read the tooltip or forgot what it said, which means they'll most likely never find out that they're doing something wrong their. Its not as if they're trying to figure out wether Thunder IV or Thunder III is the stronger spell. All they're doing right in this moment is practising a wrong rotation, which is gonna bite them in the behind later.

The basic-rotations in this game dont require you to be a genius - and knowing the difference between your AoE and your ST toolkit requires nothing more of you than reading your tooltips.
We're not talking about how to use Convert and an Aether to get more Flares out of your rotation.

Why is it always "Oh, if you're not doing savage, you dont need to know what half your skills do!"?
And how is someone supposed to learn in dungeons if they're not aware that or what they need to work on? Your rotation (specially as DPS) is pretty much muscle memory and thats what you should practise in a dungeon: Using your correct rotation for the situation (AoE vs. ST) blindley. Obviously that requires you to know this rotation before. You're not in a dungeon to figure out what your spells do and to read the tooltips, while the rest of your party patiently waits for your to do your homework in class.
I'll give leeway for the first 4 dungeons though, for people who are really new to the genre, but past that I expect a healer to do more than spam their stromgest healing-skill, a tank to use cooldowns and their aggro-skills and a DPS to know the difference between AoE and ST.

Long story short: Yes, dungeons are training grounds, but you're not learning anything if you train the wrong stuff.
I've never been to a gym, but I would hope that if someone uses some of the equiment there in a wrong way, someone else would come over to tell them "Hey, you're holding this wrong, let me show you!"

[ko_]

Knowing the difference between an AoE-spell and a ST-spell is "high competency"?
In my book, its not - its part of the very basic-concept and required knowledge as DPS, just how it is very basic and required knowledge as healer to be aware how your healing-spells work and for a tank to know how to hold aggro and how to use cooldowns.

Learning and practising is okay in leveling dungeons, yes - but please show me that you're doing that or I'll give you the needed hint. If someone is casting Thunder IV on a ST repeatedly, chances are that they either never read the tooltip or forgot what it said, which means they'll most likely never find out that they're doing something wrong their. Its not as if they're trying to figure out wether Thunder IV or Thunder III is the stronger spell. All they're doing right in this moment is practising a wrong rotation, which is gonna bite them in the behind later.

The basic-rotations in this game dont require you to be a genius - and knowing the difference between your AoE and your ST toolkit requires nothing more of you than reading your tooltips.
We're not talking about how to use Convert and an Aether to get more Flares out of your rotation.

Why is it always "Oh, if you're not doing savage, you dont need to know what half your skills do!"?
And how is someone supposed to learn in dungeons if they're not aware that or what they need to work on? Your rotation (specially as DPS) is pretty much muscle memory and thats what you should practise in a dungeon: Using your correct rotation for the situation (AoE vs. ST) blindley. Obviously that requires you to know this rotation before. You're not in a dungeon to figure out what your spells do and to read the tooltips, while the rest of your party patiently waits for your to do your homework in class.
I'll give leeway for the first 4 dungeons though, for people who are really new to the genre, but past that I expect a healer to do more than spam their stromgest healing-skill, a tank to use cooldowns and their aggro-skills and a DPS to know the difference between AoE and ST.

Long story short: Yes, dungeons are training grounds, but you're not learning anything if you train the wrong stuff.
I've never been to a gym, but I would hope that if someone uses some of the equiment there in a wrong way, someone else would come over to tell them "Hey, you're holding this wrong, let me show you!"

Well in your example the person was way nicer then most people tend to be. But that's my point. Noone is going to care if you yell at them or whatever. If you come with respect and welcoming them you'll more likely get the results you want. It's not perfect no. But those who snap for reason are shot anyway.

[Vidu]

Well in your example the person was way nicer then most people tend to be. But that's my point. Noone is going to care if you yell at them or whatever. If you come with respect and welcoming them you'll more likely get the results you want. It's not perfect no. But those who snap for reason are shot anyway.

Yes, but the person didnt ask either, which is all that I'm arguing about: Advice should be given in a polite, friendly and constructive way (personally, I try to present it lightly or as some form of I-message - "I found it very useful to do X, maybe you want to try it too?"), but if someone is doing something wrong and is training the wrong (brain) muscles right now, I dont think it requires asking for permission to correct that.

If the OP would have been "Hey, can we all make sure we give advice without being condescending?" I would have agreed with them in a heartbeat. But thats not what the OP was about. The OP was about "Before you give any advice, ask if you're allowed to". And thats what I dont agree with. As long as your advice is brought for in a polite manner, I consider that question a waste of everyones time, as long as the whole thing is only about something quick like "Please, use skil X instead of skill Y" or "Try to keep your buff up all the time!" or basically just repeating what the tooltip of the skill says - a tooltip that the person in question should have read before entering the dungeon.
The only time asking for permission is warranted in my book is if someone needs a longer explantion - in that case that question is not only for him but for the whole party to answer ("Would you mind waiting?")

Advice should always be given in a polite manner, so that it can (and should) be recived as constructive feedback and not as a personal attack.
But we dont need to walk on eggshells here - we just need to be polite in the way we interact with others. That includes how we phrase advice, but for me it also includes knowing your basics once you've got your jobstone.

[ko_]

Yes, but the person didnt ask either, which is all that I'm arguing about: Advice should be given in a polite, friendly and constructive way (personally, I try to present it lightly or as some form of I-message - "I found it very useful to do X, maybe you want to try it too?"), but if someone is doing something wrong and is training the wrong (brain) muscles right now, I dont think it requires asking for permission to correct that.

If the OP would have been "Hey, can we all make sure we give advice without being condescending?" I would have agreed with them in a heartbeat. But thats not what the OP was about. The OP was about "Before you give any advice, ask if you're allowed to". And thats what I dont agree with. As long as your advice is brought for in a polite manner, I consider that question a waste of everyones time, as long as the whole thing is only about something quick like "Please, use skil X instead of skill Y" or "Try to keep your buff up all the time!" or basically just repeating what the tooltip of the skill says - a tooltip that the person in question should have read before entering the dungeon.
The only time asking for permission is warranted in my book is if someone needs a longer explantion - in that case that question is not only for him but for the whole party to answer ("Would you mind waiting?")

Advice should always be given in a polite manner, so that it can (and should) be recived as constructive feedback and not as a personal attack.
But we dont need to walk on eggshells here - we just need to be polite in the way we interact with others. That includes how we phrase advice, but for me it also includes knowing your basics once you've got your jobstone.

Yeah your example I agree with after reading and understanding your view. Hope that didn't cause stress before that. I know debates can get heated.

[MoroMurasaki]

Levelling,50/60 and 70 dangeouns ARE training grounds, and to do savage competence and practice IS A MUST.
...
2 k DPS as you say are rare like 1 in a 1000 and mostly people jumping in with no training at all.

The issue with this mentality of putting off learning for later is that it can be applied to all casual content. So someone forgoes learning their proper abilities and rotation but since no one calls them on their poor performance they complete the msq, complete normal tier raids and the next logical step is Savage.

At this point they have sunk what is likely months (learning the wrong habits btw) into this game and rarely if ever been confronted with any kind of criticism. Since there is no in-game representation of their dps they don't know they are doing anything wrong. They join a Savage party and people rip them apart because they're using Thunder 4 on single targets or whatever... yeah, you better believe I would say something if I was in even a learning party and I watched someone making egregious rotation errors.

Know why? A learning party in enraged content is not there for you to learn your rotation or how your job works . If I get a no-melee RDM or a BRD who doesn't use Straight Shot (both things I have seen in o5s) I am 100% going to tell them they need to work on themselves before entering Savage again.

This is the conundrum. The game does virtually nothing to teach players how to play their class. The game does not allow parsers to show someone how they are messing up. The game will allow you to progress through the entire main story with basically no idea what you are doing as a dps. If we discourage people from giving advice in casual content under the premise of 'it's unnecessary' then allow those same players (who have received no feedback for 70 levels and perhaps days of playtime) to waltz into Savage they are invariably going to have an overwhelmingly negative experience.

Yes, tone matters. You don't have to give your advice in a rude way. That doesn't mean all advice is rude, though. If the person giving the OP advice had opened with 'I know a fair bit about BLM and there are a few things you could do to really increase your dps such as x' it would be better received for sure. That isn't the point though. The point is advice is a net positive and even if the OP had his feathers ruffled by the delivery of it helps him grow into a more competent player I would say it's overall a win.

[RiyahArp]

The issue with this mentality of putting off learning for later is that it can be applied to all casual content. So someone forgoes learning their proper abilities and rotation but since no one calls them on their poor performance they complete the msq, complete normal tier raids and the next logical step is Savage.

You have to realize, no, not many people do Savage like this.

You kind of view every player as naturally going into Savage content, when very few do. If you look at pickup groups, where there will be random players with no mentorship, there's maybe something like maybe 20 or less for current/ex or savage level content. For an entire data center.

I mean, they had to create cross-world PF in part because there were so few people raiding on specific servers that they had to broaden the partying ability, for statics and pugs. The issue is actually this game really struggles to get people to raid at all, and most people seem to complain about bad players in casual content. A lot of people just want to log on, do casual gameplay, and then log off; hard endgame has even less appeal than pvp to them.