How to give advice

[Angus]

Just as I don't care to play with someone who's "good" but has a horrid, toxic attitude, I'd likewise not want to play with someone who's "bad" just because they are polite and kind. That being said, if I had to pick? I'd pick the "bad" player.

However, I'm only human however and even I have my pet peeves. When a player does something wrong, I'm always reluctant to give pointers because either A) they'll listen, thank me, and try something different (rare occurrence), B) get angry, spew anger and make the rest of the run even harder or C) ignore chat completely (my personal favorite).


I do try to be polite about it, because I know I wouldn't like it if someone yelled at me what I should or shouldn't do (and at that point, I wouldn't care either). So while I understand your frustration OP, and personally sympathize, I also think you should practice your rotations for your own sake. Black mage isn't the easiest job, but it's far from being the most difficult either - and being a job that offers little to no utility, you really need to learn how to push your damage to that next level.

You're right, and I mean that (not sarcasm). I am working to up my game and I do take pride in being a blm.

[JohnSeal]

I'm gonna come off as a jerk here but so be it.
A: You know there's a difference between a multi target rotation and single target rotation and
B: You clearly know where the forums are.
You're in the wrong for not having done any research at all to establish even the most basic of rotations in a dungeon. The guy shouldn't have to tell you at all not to use or use a skill, you should, out of courtesy know the bare minimum of using your MT versus ST skills. You may be levelling but you're at least past 50 and you haven't figured out a bare minimum MT rotation? On a BLM? 100% the guy giving you unsolicited advice was certainly tired of dragging you through said dungeon and that likely justifiably colored his/her tone. No one expects raid tier dps in dungeons, but sweet ginger deity of your choosing, you're being rude just showing up like that.

Levelling/ 50/60,70 roulettes are casual content not savage raids! I personally think BLM is the easiest rotation in game lol but still you can’t pretend people doing RESEARCH on how to optimise a class in the best way before entering savage raids or ex trials, I mean is a game and it’s suppose to be not stressing at all IN A CASUAL CONTEST and you can’t make everybody feel the pressure of playing perfectly at all levels
If you are familiar with this kind of game by reading your skills and do a bit of practice you can play at a decent level. Sometimes I find lvl 50 player haviby great performances and other at lvl 70 with 350+ gear that are tremendous but we must to accept that, that’s normal so get jus to it or don’t play casual contents (:
As I said this morning there are ways and ways to give suggestions and recommendations and not everybody know how to tank nicely or just don’t want to.
The OP said he needs improvement and he will slowly but he got the right attitude to learn xD

[MoroMurasaki]

Levelling/ 50/60,70 roulettes are casual content not savage raids!

Screeching 'it's not savage let them be bad' is the reason we have sub 2k dps walking into Savage now confused as to why people are frustrated with them and removing them from parties.

[SenorPatty]

While all this debate is happening, here I am wondering if the two other party members would've waited for the blm to read the rotation link, much less give him/her time to apply and practice while they're in the dgn...

[luicei375]

ITT: Random players you come across can sound like assholes and you just have to deal with it, and realize that you'll probably see this shit again unless you improve.

Or you could always let everyone know that you're still not the best at (insert whatever you are playing) and they would be more likely to shut up and expect the fact that you're not the best.

[JohnSeal]

Screeching 'it's not savage let them be bad' is the reason we have sub 2k dps walking into Savage now confused as to why people are frustrated with them and removing them from parties.

Levelling,50/60 and 70 dangeouns ARE training grounds, and to do savage competence and practice IS A MUST.
If you don’t have enough practice and can’t play well with your class, you should not play savage just for a matter of respect to others. But at low level I don’t think high competency is required and how I said there is a difference between give suggestions and bossy people. The way you formulate sentence makes the difference often.
The op like many others can learn time by time and no need of pressure.

Anyway you don’t need to be a genius or have orange logs to play good runs in savage but it more a matter of practice, you can have the perfect rotation but are not able to dodge so you fail but you can fix that with practise. Same concept for DPS performances, you can improve little by little, run after run as far as you start from a good basic level of knowledge. Nobody is a champions on the first clear.
As a main healer like me you can agree that or performance depends by other performances, less mistakes from party members, better tanks means better scores.
2 k DPS as you say are rare like 1 in a 1000 and mostly people jumping in with no training at all.

[Vidu]

Levelling,50/60 and 70 dangeouns ARE training grounds, and to do savage competence and practice IS A MUST.
If you don’t have enough practice and can’t play well with your class, you should not play savage just for a matter of respect to others. But at low level I don’t think high competency is required and how I said there is a difference between give suggestions and bossy people. The way you formulate sentence makes the difference often.
The op like many others can learn time by time and no need of pressure.

Knowing the difference between an AoE-spell and a ST-spell is "high competency"?
In my book, its not - its part of the very basic-concept and required knowledge as DPS, just how it is very basic and required knowledge as healer to be aware how your healing-spells work and for a tank to know how to hold aggro and how to use cooldowns.

Learning and practising is okay in leveling dungeons, yes - but please show me that you're doing that or I'll give you the needed hint. If someone is casting Thunder IV on a ST repeatedly, chances are that they either never read the tooltip or forgot what it said, which means they'll most likely never find out that they're doing something wrong their. Its not as if they're trying to figure out wether Thunder IV or Thunder III is the stronger spell. All they're doing right in this moment is practising a wrong rotation, which is gonna bite them in the behind later.

The basic-rotations in this game dont require you to be a genius - and knowing the difference between your AoE and your ST toolkit requires nothing more of you than reading your tooltips.
We're not talking about how to use Convert and an Aether to get more Flares out of your rotation.

Why is it always "Oh, if you're not doing savage, you dont need to know what half your skills do!"?
And how is someone supposed to learn in dungeons if they're not aware that or what they need to work on? Your rotation (specially as DPS) is pretty much muscle memory and thats what you should practise in a dungeon: Using your correct rotation for the situation (AoE vs. ST) blindley. Obviously that requires you to know this rotation before. You're not in a dungeon to figure out what your spells do and to read the tooltips, while the rest of your party patiently waits for your to do your homework in class.
I'll give leeway for the first 4 dungeons though, for people who are really new to the genre, but past that I expect a healer to do more than spam their stromgest healing-skill, a tank to use cooldowns and their aggro-skills and a DPS to know the difference between AoE and ST.

Long story short: Yes, dungeons are training grounds, but you're not learning anything if you train the wrong stuff.
I've never been to a gym, but I would hope that if someone uses some of the equiment there in a wrong way, someone else would come over to tell them "Hey, you're holding this wrong, let me show you!"

[ko_]

Knowing the difference between an AoE-spell and a ST-spell is "high competency"?
In my book, its not - its part of the very basic-concept and required knowledge as DPS, just how it is very basic and required knowledge as healer to be aware how your healing-spells work and for a tank to know how to hold aggro and how to use cooldowns.

Learning and practising is okay in leveling dungeons, yes - but please show me that you're doing that or I'll give you the needed hint. If someone is casting Thunder IV on a ST repeatedly, chances are that they either never read the tooltip or forgot what it said, which means they'll most likely never find out that they're doing something wrong their. Its not as if they're trying to figure out wether Thunder IV or Thunder III is the stronger spell. All they're doing right in this moment is practising a wrong rotation, which is gonna bite them in the behind later.

The basic-rotations in this game dont require you to be a genius - and knowing the difference between your AoE and your ST toolkit requires nothing more of you than reading your tooltips.
We're not talking about how to use Convert and an Aether to get more Flares out of your rotation.

Why is it always "Oh, if you're not doing savage, you dont need to know what half your skills do!"?
And how is someone supposed to learn in dungeons if they're not aware that or what they need to work on? Your rotation (specially as DPS) is pretty much muscle memory and thats what you should practise in a dungeon: Using your correct rotation for the situation (AoE vs. ST) blindley. Obviously that requires you to know this rotation before. You're not in a dungeon to figure out what your spells do and to read the tooltips, while the rest of your party patiently waits for your to do your homework in class.
I'll give leeway for the first 4 dungeons though, for people who are really new to the genre, but past that I expect a healer to do more than spam their stromgest healing-skill, a tank to use cooldowns and their aggro-skills and a DPS to know the difference between AoE and ST.

Long story short: Yes, dungeons are training grounds, but you're not learning anything if you train the wrong stuff.
I've never been to a gym, but I would hope that if someone uses some of the equiment there in a wrong way, someone else would come over to tell them "Hey, you're holding this wrong, let me show you!"

Well in your example the person was way nicer then most people tend to be. But that's my point. Noone is going to care if you yell at them or whatever. If you come with respect and welcoming them you'll more likely get the results you want. It's not perfect no. But those who snap for reason are shot anyway.

[Vidu]

Well in your example the person was way nicer then most people tend to be. But that's my point. Noone is going to care if you yell at them or whatever. If you come with respect and welcoming them you'll more likely get the results you want. It's not perfect no. But those who snap for reason are shot anyway.

Yes, but the person didnt ask either, which is all that I'm arguing about: Advice should be given in a polite, friendly and constructive way (personally, I try to present it lightly or as some form of I-message - "I found it very useful to do X, maybe you want to try it too?"), but if someone is doing something wrong and is training the wrong (brain) muscles right now, I dont think it requires asking for permission to correct that.

If the OP would have been "Hey, can we all make sure we give advice without being condescending?" I would have agreed with them in a heartbeat. But thats not what the OP was about. The OP was about "Before you give any advice, ask if you're allowed to". And thats what I dont agree with. As long as your advice is brought for in a polite manner, I consider that question a waste of everyones time, as long as the whole thing is only about something quick like "Please, use skil X instead of skill Y" or "Try to keep your buff up all the time!" or basically just repeating what the tooltip of the skill says - a tooltip that the person in question should have read before entering the dungeon.
The only time asking for permission is warranted in my book is if someone needs a longer explantion - in that case that question is not only for him but for the whole party to answer ("Would you mind waiting?")

Advice should always be given in a polite manner, so that it can (and should) be recived as constructive feedback and not as a personal attack.
But we dont need to walk on eggshells here - we just need to be polite in the way we interact with others. That includes how we phrase advice, but for me it also includes knowing your basics once you've got your jobstone.

[ko_]

Yes, but the person didnt ask either, which is all that I'm arguing about: Advice should be given in a polite, friendly and constructive way (personally, I try to present it lightly or as some form of I-message - "I found it very useful to do X, maybe you want to try it too?"), but if someone is doing something wrong and is training the wrong (brain) muscles right now, I dont think it requires asking for permission to correct that.

If the OP would have been "Hey, can we all make sure we give advice without being condescending?" I would have agreed with them in a heartbeat. But thats not what the OP was about. The OP was about "Before you give any advice, ask if you're allowed to". And thats what I dont agree with. As long as your advice is brought for in a polite manner, I consider that question a waste of everyones time, as long as the whole thing is only about something quick like "Please, use skil X instead of skill Y" or "Try to keep your buff up all the time!" or basically just repeating what the tooltip of the skill says - a tooltip that the person in question should have read before entering the dungeon.
The only time asking for permission is warranted in my book is if someone needs a longer explantion - in that case that question is not only for him but for the whole party to answer ("Would you mind waiting?")

Advice should always be given in a polite manner, so that it can (and should) be recived as constructive feedback and not as a personal attack.
But we dont need to walk on eggshells here - we just need to be polite in the way we interact with others. That includes how we phrase advice, but for me it also includes knowing your basics once you've got your jobstone.

Yeah your example I agree with after reading and understanding your view. Hope that didn't cause stress before that. I know debates can get heated.