How to give advice

[Vidu]

I find this is a bit of a difficult and touchy subject - in a case like yours, where fine-tuning seems to be the main issue, I would personally deem it more appropriate to offer to give advice instead of just blasting it out aswell, but since you made more of a general statment here, I would like to call that into question.

First: If someone totally fails at the basics of their job, specially a tank or healer, specially in content past Ifrit NM, I dont see the need to politely ask if I'm allowed to give them the most basic advice. I will not ask if I may tell the gladiator that they need to use Flash. (And yes, I know, that it wasnt about the most basic-concept of BLM in your case, but if you make such a general statment, I'd like to show when it doesnt or shouldnt hold true anymore).

Second: Even beyond the most basic advice, I dont see the need to beg people to let me tell them that they're getting certain, very specific things (like AoE-spells vs. non-AoE-spells and when to use which) wrong. Its a waste of everyones time if all you want to do is let the person in question know that Thunder IV isnt stronger than Thunder III when used on a single target. (And yes, I know, in your case it was followed by a whole lecture, from the sound of the OP, but again: general statment and such).

Third: If you are already aware that you're struggeling with a job, I personally always found it very useful to let the party know before hand real quick that I'm rusty on said job and still learning. Specially in past level 50 or even more so level 60 content. And yes, you can obviously say "I'm in a leveling dungeon, it should be obvious that I'm still learning!" and it should be infact obvious, but I always wanted to give my fellow team-mates the courtesy to let them know that I'm fully aware of not being a geart ninja and that any advice would be appriated.
Thats a bit of an issue that I'm having with your statment there - you are aware that you're not a great BLM (yet) and thats obviously not a problem!
However, I've always believed that you shouldnt have to beg people to be allowed to tell them things they should already know or be able to do. Advice should be given in an appropriate and polite manner, but I've seen so many people out there who believe they dont need to hear or follow advice that the overall skill of the playerbase would decrease even more if it were up to them to decide wether or not they need it (surprise: they think they dont and believe they play like young gods already - anecdotal, but to illustrate: Last week I met a level 50+ BLM in KoL, who didnt use Fire II on groups of 4+ mobs, because he felt Fire I was stronger. Even after being told otherwise.)

I will not beg to give (fundamental) advice.
If you have an issue with advice given to you, I can understand that - its annoying, specially if you actually know better and are already busy beating yourself up about the mistake you just made. But personally I always found it more helpful for myself and the groups I ran into, to inform that I'm not terribly familiar with the job in question, but are trying to figure things out and that advice would be welcome.

I'm getting the impression that a lot of people - maybe you aswell, OP - think of advice as a personal attack, which makes it really difficult and annoying to give out any advice or even offer advice. Even by asking "Hey, do you mind me giving some advice on your rotation?", you're implying that there is an issue with said rotation and I've seen a lot of people taking offense at the suggestion that they might not play like the young gods they think they are.
What needs to change here is not only the way that some advice is given (advice should always be given in a polite manner), but also the way advice is recived (not as a personal attack, but as feedback that the game itself gives terribly little of by itself).

Its not that I dont understand what you mean, but I'm saying there are other ways to deal with this problem - mainly to inform your party that you're learning/struggeling with the job or are still new to it/rusty.
If you absolutly dont want advice, thats the least you can do - besides the obvious going into a dungeon, knowing how to play.

[MuseTraveller]

It really depends on the tone. If someone gives me tips while acting all condescending, I'm likely to do the opposite just to spite them but I do look into the tip - if they were right, I'll take it to heart.

I've seen quite the opposite however. Last time someone gave me tips while leveling my astro, they were like "please don't take this poorly but I think you should use this and not that" ... it's like people are afraid to give feed back cause people flip so often. I thanked the guy, did as they said, gave comm at the end. /shrug

So yes, tips are welcomed just don't be a douche when you give them. Likewise, don't be a sensitive snowflake when someone tries to improve your gameplay.

[MageBlack]

Its not what you say but how you say it.

I recently had someone ask me, while tanking a dungeon, why i was only doing my buchers block combo. They werent too rude about it, just curious. Rather than get offended i decided to explain. It wasnt really needed for me to do more than buchers block and Cyclone, not on trash fights anyway. For bosses I would build up my bar then wait for a safe moment to swap stances, unleash the beasts, then pop back. After explaining that it really didnt matter if I go ham on everything or not I decided to actually go all out on the final boss, just to show him, yes, i do know how to play. Hey, if SE only puts in minimal effort to making the content, then I'll be deadpools lazy brother "Minimal effort!" lol. I'm not like that all the time but sometimes, after doing the dungeon for the 5th time in a row, I lose interest or start to nodd off.

Well, the point of that was to show that its not just how people come across to you but also how you perceive what they say. We read things how we feel, if i'm feeling defensive and someone tells me I could be doing better, I might read it in the "Annoying Customer" voice instead of a David Attenborough.

[ko_]

Eh I'm two ways about it. I'd ask because just throwing out tips without context isnt helping anyway. You cant see tone in text so if you're just throwing out tips without asking if the person wants to hear. You're just asking for them to not listen or start a fight. Tho I understand why people feel the need to do that. But you know what everyone should do? Treat people how you want to be treated. Dont be a dick, no matter WHERE you stand.

[Melichoir]

How often, in reality, are there fights that require throwing out mid combat "Hey, do 'X'." Very few. The way the game is set up, it takes some next level inexperience where this would be a necessity in normal content. Not that it doesnt happen, but rather Id hazard 90% of the time you can wait till the pull is over to say something. And since boss monsters arent the first thing you run into, if people are as skilled as they claim, theyll notice it well before then.

[Tizzy_Tormentor]

Back in ARR, I struggled a bit with how to play SMN, I just kind of wasn't doing too well, in an Expert roulette, guy basically said I wasn't playing it as good as I could be and told me how to do better. Knowing I could stand to get some pointers, I just read what he wrote and honestly I felt like I was doing much better after, at the end he told me to keep up the practice. He wasn't exactly polite about it but I thought if he had something to say, might as well listen and honestly, it helped.

Not everyone is out to get you, in my experience, if they care enough to point it out and offer to help, they are trying to be helpful, even if it doesn't seem that way, but giving advice to players is absolutely not allowed. If they say "you suck" with no advice on how to improve, yeah, dick move, but I have seen some players struggle to play and always stop myself from trying to help because doing so is frowned upon.

[Pyroxene]

Warning: I'm venting and this has been said before, but it bares repeating.

So on Friday I'm doing a simple Duty Finder dungeon run. I'm blm, not the best, but I'm learning my rotation. I can get Flare up pretty fast. I tend to use the same basic rotation on both single and group targets. Yes, I should work on that.

Anyways, things are going well and we're all running through it pretty quickly, when someone has a fit that I'm using Thunder 4 on a single target. They then proceed to say "let me school you on blm". This ticked me off beyond compare. A few runs down the line and they post the basic blm rotation.

I get it, I need to work on things, but I am getting better. If this this person had been watching, they'd have seen I was doing most of the rotation. Also, stuff happens, sometimes I lose my place in the rotation due to fight dynamics.

The point? If you want to give advice, ask the other play if they want it. This person's attitude threw my whole game off the rest of the run. I've been in parties where players asked others if they'd like a few tips. Those parties were some of the best I've been in. People start talking and sharing and we have great times. This is why I haven't left Final Fantasy.

Thanks for listening, hope some of you understand.

Hmm... I disagree, HOW you relay it is key here, if you are noticing a player not performing well, you should be doing your bit to assist in building a better community by offering your assistance and tips etc. "Let me school you on BLM" is just needless arrogance and bound to get someones back up over it, thus making them less receptive to advice to improve.

A simple "Hey <playername> I noticed your rotation/damage/healing/aggroholding is quite off, have you tried doing <insert advice here>, might make things easier for you."

Imo, if you can't stand up and offer your help and advice where you can, you have no right to complain when others don't perform to your expectation. Even people who know they need help will often turn it down out of fear of looking stupid. Give them the advice you see they need, it's up to them if they decide to use it, but for the love of god, do it politely, being a jerk or an arrogant know all isn't gonna get you anywhere. In this, I agree with you

[LeoLupinos]

If I were you I would be grateful for it. And I would even ask away my doubts.
Everyone teaching everyone is better than solo play with no sharing of information.
Nobody is perfect, even you have things to teach him. Just be grateful and push the pride aside.

[Kakiko]

There's a right way and a wrong way to offer advice. We can't hear each other's voices in random content, we can't see body language, so we're relying solely on text and sometimes text can be very deceptive in tone. Telling someone "I'm going to school you on x class" in the middle of an instance, without knowing that person beforehand, comes across as super informal and antagonistic, not to mention how do you even know that person knows how to play x class? I was in a Skalla run one time with a WHM who was constantly sheathing their weapon and not healing during Kelpie. Later on, during a trash pack, while things are melting under my aoe, they called me out on my rotation and said I should do a different one. The rotation they gave me didn't even make sense for BLM - there literally wouldn't have been enough mana to do it because they were telling me to avoid using any blizzard spells at all, but they acted high and mighty about it and called me a nasty word when I told them my rotation was fine (it was the one I'd learned off The Balance discord server) and were swiftly removed from the instance via vote dismiss.

The WHM I had yesterday in Tsuku Ex with me. If she thought I was doing horribly as WHM (which she must have given her comments), she could have given some pointers. She could have said "hey, I'd love to give you some advice" instead she asked if I mained healer, and when asked why she asked that replied with "just watching you." When we wiped, she singled me out with "Kiko how are u dying so much" even though everyone else was dying as well (she left the tank dead for at least 2 minutes before the wipe finally happened and any raises before that were given by the RDM or myself). If she had tried to give advice after "how are u dying so much", I probably wouldn't have listened because she was being antagonistic from the get-go with "do u main a healer" and "just watching you" comments.

By all means, open a dialogue with someone you think could improve but remember that your words can be misconstrued in an entirely text-based system and it's not someone "being a snowflake" or being too thinned-skinned, it's entirely a lack of tonal context. "You need to work on your rotation" is vastly different than "I could help you with a better rotation."

[WhiteArchmage]

snip

I think THAT'S actually what irks me the most, when someone is trying to "school me" about my job without even knowing how it plays. Like on HW I got Antitower for my roulette and, of course, I was feeding every Arrow to the BLM. At one point, he just stops and goes "Why are you giving me Arrow? You should be giving it to the MNK" and I was so taken aback by that that I could not respond for a few minutes until I finally told him "you know Arrow is for speed, right?" and then they go on to tell me "Arrow is for mellee, Spear is for casters" I tried to explain how, as a BLM with infinite mana, Arrow has the most to gain and less to lose out of all my cards except maybe Balance but they still held on to that (Hell, I used Arrow to TROLL my MNK friend in HW...).

Bottom line is, unsolicited advice is ok as long as you are not being rude about it and ACTUALLY KNOW WTH YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.