How to give advice

[MoroMurasaki]

Levelling,50/60 and 70 dangeouns ARE training grounds, and to do savage competence and practice IS A MUST.
...
2 k DPS as you say are rare like 1 in a 1000 and mostly people jumping in with no training at all.

The issue with this mentality of putting off learning for later is that it can be applied to all casual content. So someone forgoes learning their proper abilities and rotation but since no one calls them on their poor performance they complete the msq, complete normal tier raids and the next logical step is Savage.

At this point they have sunk what is likely months (learning the wrong habits btw) into this game and rarely if ever been confronted with any kind of criticism. Since there is no in-game representation of their dps they don't know they are doing anything wrong. They join a Savage party and people rip them apart because they're using Thunder 4 on single targets or whatever... yeah, you better believe I would say something if I was in even a learning party and I watched someone making egregious rotation errors.

Know why? A learning party in enraged content is not there for you to learn your rotation or how your job works . If I get a no-melee RDM or a BRD who doesn't use Straight Shot (both things I have seen in o5s) I am 100% going to tell them they need to work on themselves before entering Savage again.

This is the conundrum. The game does virtually nothing to teach players how to play their class. The game does not allow parsers to show someone how they are messing up. The game will allow you to progress through the entire main story with basically no idea what you are doing as a dps. If we discourage people from giving advice in casual content under the premise of 'it's unnecessary' then allow those same players (who have received no feedback for 70 levels and perhaps days of playtime) to waltz into Savage they are invariably going to have an overwhelmingly negative experience.

Yes, tone matters. You don't have to give your advice in a rude way. That doesn't mean all advice is rude, though. If the person giving the OP advice had opened with 'I know a fair bit about BLM and there are a few things you could do to really increase your dps such as x' it would be better received for sure. That isn't the point though. The point is advice is a net positive and even if the OP had his feathers ruffled by the delivery of it helps him grow into a more competent player I would say it's overall a win.

[RiyahArp]

The issue with this mentality of putting off learning for later is that it can be applied to all casual content. So someone forgoes learning their proper abilities and rotation but since no one calls them on their poor performance they complete the msq, complete normal tier raids and the next logical step is Savage.

You have to realize, no, not many people do Savage like this.

You kind of view every player as naturally going into Savage content, when very few do. If you look at pickup groups, where there will be random players with no mentorship, there's maybe something like maybe 20 or less for current/ex or savage level content. For an entire data center.

I mean, they had to create cross-world PF in part because there were so few people raiding on specific servers that they had to broaden the partying ability, for statics and pugs. The issue is actually this game really struggles to get people to raid at all, and most people seem to complain about bad players in casual content. A lot of people just want to log on, do casual gameplay, and then log off; hard endgame has even less appeal than pvp to them.

[JohnSeal]

The good: OP admits they need to practice, they'll hopefully use their frustration to grow, and the guy giving advice was willing to give a whole rotation.

The bad: OP should have practiced their AOE and single target rotations separately since they knew it was a thing before hopping into grouped content, and opening advice with "Let me school you" Is pretty rude and I can totally understand why it would get to someone.

In the end, I think everyone should practice before they hop into grouped content, it helps a ton, If you don't then be prepared for advice or criticism.
I also feel advice should be given kindly and respectfully, if you can't do that don't complain about people getting defensive or being unreceptive to it because you're a part of the problem to.

That is the point dear... Advice is welcome, positive and encouraged.
Criticism is not! Just pointless and not appreciated by most of people.
Like imagine in a working environment:
Are you ok if colleague criticise you ? I doubt, probably an healthy advice to improve may be better . You can find people ( or colleagues) the criticise just to diminish you and others that give you advice to improve your OTE, l think we all prefer second kind of people to work with.
Same concept applies in ffxiv

[Bellsong]

That is the point dear... Advice is welcome, positive and encouraged.
Criticism is not! Just pointless and not appreciated by most of people.
Like imagine in a working environment:
Are you ok if colleague criticise you ? I doubt, probably an healthy advice to improve may be better . You can find people ( or colleagues) the criticise just to diminish you and others that give you advice to improve your OTE, l think we all prefer second kind of people to work with.
Same concept applies in ffxiv

There's lots of instances where criticism is a good thing, it isn't always diminishing either. The biggest problem with criticism is people who don't know how to give it which is what gives people so much anxiety receiving it.
I suppose I could have said "Constructive criticism" but either way I feel my point still stands, if you're going to do something while willfully being unprepared for it you should not be surprised that people may speak up.
Advice and criticism in certain places are very important for growth. And some jobs will require you to take it well, especially artistic jobs.

[PerrinTaveren]

I can understand your frustration. A reverse thing happened to me yesterday. I joined leveling roulette as tank because i am doing those for tank mounts, and i got lv 67 dungeon. We had a SCH, who had "The Legend" title, which if you don't know for clearing Ultimate Coil of Bahamut. And our BLM had all diamond gear set, which is for clearing savage.

Anyway, we started. This BLM didn't use any of enmity control actions, aka diversion, lucid dreaming etc. I am used to go into dps stance as a tank while tanking so i did it, but BLM didn't use ANY of enmity actions and at the last boss i had to go into tank stance.

As for SCH, let's just say we wiped 4 times. He didn't use any shields, he didn't use his fairy properly. He tried to spam physick while i was in holmgang waiting for some lustrates... He was so terrible, i couldn't even understand. Without his legend title, i would have thought he was new to the game tbh. (And btw it was a regular pull, i didn't pull 2 stacks or anything because i tried it and we wiped ofc).

I didn't complain. Why? Because they would probably kick me because what do i know right? I am a BLM, SCH, WHM main. I never cleared savage but i know how to not snap agro from tanks and how to properly heal.

People are dicks. I suggest get used to it, because there are a lot of them in this game.

[luicei375]

I can understand your frustration. A reverse thing happened to me yesterday. I joined leveling roulette as tank because i am doing those for tank mounts, and i got lv 67 dungeon. We had a SCH, who had "The Legend" title, which if you don't know for clearing Ultimate Coil of Bahamut. And our BLM had all diamond gear set, which is for clearing savage.

Anyway, we started. This BLM didn't use any of enmity control actions, aka diversion, lucid dreaming etc. I am used to go into dps stance as a tank while tanking so i did it, but BLM didn't use ANY of enmity actions and at the last boss i had to go into tank stance.

As for SCH, let's just say we wiped 4 times. He didn't use any shields, he didn't use his fairy properly. He tried to spam physick while i was in holmgang waiting for some lustrates... He was so terrible, i couldn't even understand. Without his legend title, i would have thought he was new to the game tbh. (And btw it was a regular pull, i didn't pull 2 stacks or anything because i tried it and we wiped ofc).

I didn't complain. Why? Because they would probably kick me because what do i know right? I am a BLM, SCH, WHM main. I never cleared savage but i know how to not snap agro from tanks and how to properly heal.

People are dicks. I suggest get used to it, because there are a lot of them in this game.

Having cleared UCoB and still playing like shit? Probably bought the clear.

[Yenyen]

Just don't give advice at all, help who asks for it because people are way too sensitive.

I've told dragoons they should actually apply chaos thrust, told them they shouldn't spam Jumps like GcD
Told a summoner they shouldn't use a titan pet
Told a white mage they have a regen to make healing easier for themself.
Told a bard they have Dots

All of them mostly give the same response, something along the lines of the games not fun when being told what to do
You can try and give advice and hope they want to listen but just, the second they get defensive drop it and let them continue what they were doing.

[JohnSeal]

Yes I understand, the thread literally is “ How to give advices “ so I was talking about the way people criticise player in not constructive way but in a diminishing one.Some players really help the community but other are just insulting. I give suggestion to people only if I see are doing gigantic errors and they are totally far from understanding how the class work like Ice mages, SMN with no dot, Sams or Rdms with no aoe but I shut up for if I see a BRD with no heavy shot or DRG with no heavy trust stuff like that.

Yes it’s essential to read your skills and practice with it, probably many players are not familiar with this kind of games and how it works.
Unfortunately there are really little instruments of improvement and comparison for low level players to improve and understand many things. I started as BLM back in the days and honestly I never used Fire II till early 50s because seemed useless compared to Fire III that I was spamming (ok feeling silly if I think of it) then I realised how aoe work better on 3+ mobs.
That’s because the requirements in overhall are really low, no DPS checks for examples and player can complete instances easly anyway so they probably think are doing well perfectly but they don’t realise if are missing something but that is how casual contents works.
Most of new player don’t use roles at all because seems useless, especially tanks or some players don’t understand the power of dots. But nobody force them too.
Often skills itself are not fully explained and some effects hidden, like nobody tell you lucid, refresh or tactician reduce enmity or that eye x eye can be spread stuff like that.
Anyway you may be right on the general point still nodoby needs to be surprised if player underperform at the begin

[Vidu]

Yes I understand, the thread literally is “ How to give advices “ so I was talking about the way people criticise player in not constructive way but in a diminishing one.Some players really help the community but other are just insulting. I give suggestion to people only if I see are doing gigantic errors and they are totally far from understanding how the class work like Ice mages, SMN with no dot, Sams or Rdms with no aoe but I shut up for if I see a BRD with no heavy shot or DRG with no heavy trust stuff like that.

Yes it’s essential to read your skills and practice with it, probably many players are not familiar with this kind of games and how it works.
Unfortunately there are really little instruments of improvement and comparison for low level players to improve and understand many things. I started as BLM back in the days and honestly I never used Fire II till early 50s because seemed useless compared to Fire III that I was spamming (ok feeling silly if I think of it) then I realised how aoe work better on 3+ mobs.
That’s because the requirements in overhall are really low, no DPS checks for examples and player can complete instances easly anyway so they probably think are doing well perfectly but they don’t realise if are missing something but that is how casual contents works.
Most of new player don’t use roles at all because seems useless, especially tanks or some players don’t understand the power of dots. But nobody force them too.
Often skills itself are not fully explained and some effects hidden, like nobody tell you lucid, refresh or tactician reduce enmity or that eye x eye can be spread stuff like that.
Anyway you may be right on the general point still nodoby needs to be surprised if player underperform at the begin

And that bolded part is exactly why we, as longterm players, need to give advice and feedback to a new person or even just to someone whos new to the job. And yes, as long as that advice is phrased politely, even without asking for permission first.

I dont think anyone is surprised about players underoperforming within the first few dungeons and no one has an issue with that, as long as they see the person really trying their best.
However... in light of the OP... Thunder IV is the level 64 BLM-skill. Thats way, way past being a new player or new to the job. Its way past the point where someone learns the concept of AoE vs. ST-damage and what to use when.
Personally, my BLM-hotbars are set up with a AoE-section and a ST-section. Each time I get a new skill, I read the tooltip and stick it either to the AoEs or the ST-spells.

And as I mentioned earlier already: what you're practising in dungeons goes to your muscle memory, so that one day you'll be able to play your job half asleep. Whats the point of letting someone learn and parctise something that you know is wrong in a dungeon? I had a bard in Haukke NM once, who wouldnt use DoTs and I kept asking for them, even though the whole run wouldnt have taken much longer without them. But the reason I kept asking for them and reminding him and telling him how important DoTs are is that I main bard as dps and know that the whole core-mechanic of bard - the songs - depend on your DoTs. So you better get used to keeping them all the time and learn how to do that from the start.

You're also making the good point of people not realising that they might be doing something wrong - which again supports giving polite advice, instead of asking for permission, seeing how that permission can denied, because someone is convinced they already know it all.
...and seeing how a question like "Hey, I see you're doing something wrong - might if I tell you how to do it right?" would hurt the feelings of every sensitive little snowflake out there already aswell (because you're telling them they're doing something wrong - even by offering to give advice, you're at least implying that), I really dont see the point of it.

Be polite, be friendly - but give advice when its needed! The game doesnt do it - its up to us.

Yeah your example I agree with after reading and understanding your view. Hope that didn't cause stress before that. I know debates can get heated.

No harm done! ;D
I know that my posts on this matter can come off as a little harsh in tone, but thats mainly because I try to make them as clear as possible. As I said in my first post here... touchy subject. And I would like to avoid this getting heated, by sticking to a neutral tone myself - even if that seems harsh at times! Nothing personal, just trying to get my points across as clear as possible - so I apologise if I cam of rude, that wasnt my intention!

[ko_]

And that bolded part is exactly why we, as longterm players, need to give advice and feedback to a new person or even just to someone whos new to the job. And yes, as long as that advice is phrased politely, even without asking for permission first.

I dont think anyone is surprised about players underoperforming within the first few dungeons and no one has an issue with that, as long as they see the person really trying their best.
However... in light of the OP... Thunder IV is the level 64 BLM-skill. Thats way, way past being a new player or new to the job. Its way past the point where someone learns the concept of AoE vs. ST-damage and what to use when.
Personally, my BLM-hotbars are set up with a AoE-section and a ST-section. Each time I get a new skill, I read the tooltip and stick it either to the AoEs or the ST-spells.

And as I mentioned earlier already: what you're practising in dungeons goes to your muscle memory, so that one day you'll be able to play your job half asleep. Whats the point of letting someone learn and parctise something that you know is wrong in a dungeon? I had a bard in Haukke NM once, who wouldnt use DoTs and I kept asking for them, even though the whole run wouldnt have taken much longer without them. But the reason I kept asking for them and reminding him and telling him how important DoTs are is that I main bard as dps and know that the whole core-mechanic of bard - the songs - depend on your DoTs. So you better get used to keeping them all the time and learn how to do that from the start.

You're also making the good point of people not realising that they might be doing something wrong - which again supports giving polite advice, instead of asking for permission, seeing how that permission can denied, because someone is convinced they already know it all.
...and seeing how a question like "Hey, I see you're doing something wrong - might if I tell you how to do it right?" would hurt the feelings of every sensitive little snowflake out there already aswell (because you're telling them they're doing something wrong - even by offering to give advice, you're at least implying that), I really dont see the point of it.

Be polite, be friendly - but give advice when its needed! The game doesnt do it - its up to us.



No harm done! ;D
I know that my posts on this matter can come off as a little harsh in tone, but thats mainly because I try to make them as clear as possible. As I said in my first post here... touchy subject. And I would like to avoid this getting heated, by sticking to a neutral tone myself - even if that seems harsh at times! Nothing personal, just trying to get my points across as clear as possible - so I apologise if I cam of rude, that wasnt my intention!

Is that the big grin of riches? It's been so long. ;D