Sexual harassment

[Rogatum]

I like that everyone has decided to argue against everything I say, but it's distracting from the topic at hand. Sexual harassment in-game needs to be addressed. It's not about believing accusations, it's about action being taken when proof is there and also teaching people not to sexually harass others in the first place.

How does one go about teaching someone to not sexually harass or abuse another? I am no expert, but aren't issues of sexual harassment or abuse products of misplaced desire, and warped view of power and or authority. Can you really teach someone with that mindset that it is wrong before the action happens?

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach people how to protect themselves from such people? What to do if someone feels have they been harassed or abused in any way?

[SilverObi]

How does one go about teaching someone to not sexually harass or abuse another? I am no expert, but aren't issues of sexual harassment or abuse products of misplaced desire, and warped view of power and or authority. Can you really teach someone with that mindset that it is wrong before the action happens?

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach people how to protect themselves from such people? What to do if someone feels have they been harassed or abused in any way?

Careful with that kinda logic, it makes too much sense. People who want to harm others in any way, shape, or form most likely already know what they're doing is wrong. No amount of teaching will prevent people with ill intent from acting on their designs. We can however teach people how best to defend themselves to prevent becoming another statistic.

And all we can do as people when someone does feel harassed or abused is listen to their situation and gather all the information to make the best choice for the current issue. Obviously this varies a lot depending on the severity of the accusation

[Solarra]

How does one go about teaching someone to not sexually harass or abuse another? I am no expert, but aren't issues of sexual harassment or abuse products of misplaced desire, and warped view of power and or authority. Can you really teach someone with that mindset that it is wrong before the action happens?

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach people how to protect themselves from such people? What to do if someone feels have they been harassed or abused in any way?

I'd say the best approach would be to hit this from both angles, ie. target both potential abusers and potential victims. Most people who sexually harass others absolutely do know what they are doing is wrong, are aware they are causing distress and simply do not care as long as they can get away with it.
So, if we want to reduce sexual-harassment, creating an environment where it is not tolerated and there are severe consequences will act as a deterrent. It's not exactly 'teaching' people not to do it, just making it clear that such behaviour carries huge risks.

Teaching potential victims how to protect themselves is important, but if you only do that, it tends to be interpreted by many people as simply saying we shouldn't get into situations where somebody can abuse us, and if we do, it's 100% our fault (just look at some of the posts in this thread). That is a dangerous message to send out. It lets the abuser off the hook and its shames the victim, which may make people less likely to speak out.
If an abuser targets someone who fails to protect themselves due to youth, lack of experience, being ill, stressed by real-life issues etc then I'd like to think the community would be there for them, no matter how obvious the danger might seem to anyone looking at their situation from the outside.

Of course, telling people what the danger-signs are and what they can do if they find themselves being harassed is absolutely vital, too.

[BillyKaplan]

How does one go about teaching someone to not sexually harass or abuse another?

You teach them exactly that, rather than tell women and victims how to not be abused, which sadly seems to be the more popular approach to the matter. You (general) can also stop going easy when people are found guilty of abuse or harassment. "But he's such a good boy from a good home and he's a star student in college!" Uh, if the court just found him guilty of rape, I don't think he's such a good boy, and the punishment should reflect that. But because it's not only hard to get the guilty verdict, but the sentences are also laughable, people learn that they can get away with it. There need to be harsher consequences to these actions.

Can you really teach someone with that mindset that it is wrong before the action happens?

Uh, yes? "Someone with that mindset", how did they reach that mindset in the first place? No one's born with any mindset. They're raised and groomed into it. If you teach a boy from a young age that girls are people too just like they are (#INeedFeminismBecause), if you stop saying "boys will be boys" when they hurt someone, if you hold boys accountable to their actions from a young age instead of just expecting them to know better when they hit a certain age and then go easy on them when they don't, then they will know better when they grow up. They'll know women aren't there just for their sexual pleasure; they'll know that if they hurt someone, they'll be punished for it and not get a reduced sentence, so they'll be much less likely to commit the crime; they'll be decent human beings.

Wouldn't it make more sense to teach people how to protect themselves from such people?

What are you going to do, teach yourself how to clean up after your dog, or get the dog used to only doing its stuff on the paper, and then outside?
My attacker was someone I've known for over ten years and was one of my best friends. The only thing I can "learn" from this is to become a hermit and never form bonds with anyone else ever again because I don't know who will end up betraying me next.
Imagine if instead, we tried to teach people not to assault and harass.

[MoroMurasaki]

You teach them exactly that, rather than tell women and victims how to not be abused, which sadly seems to be the more popular approach to the matter. You (general) can also stop going easy when people are found guilty of abuse or harassment. "But he's such a good boy from a good home and he's a star student in college!" Uh, if the court just found him guilty of rape, I don't think he's such a good boy, and the punishment should reflect that. But because it's not only hard to get the guilty verdict, but the sentences are also laughable, people learn that they can get away with it. There need to be harsher consequences to these actions.



Uh, yes? "Someone with that mindset", how did they reach that mindset in the first place? No one's born with any mindset. They're raised and groomed into it. If you teach a boy from a young age that girls are people too just like they are (#INeedFeminismBecause), if you stop saying "boys will be boys" when they hurt someone, if you hold boys accountable to their actions from a young age instead of just expecting them to know better when they hit a certain age and then go easy on them when they don't, then they will know better when they grow up. They'll know women aren't there just for their sexual pleasure; they'll know that if they hurt someone, they'll be punished for it and not get a reduced sentence, so they'll be much less likely to commit the crime; they'll be decent human beings.



What are you going to do, teach yourself how to clean up after your dog, or get the dog used to only doing its stuff on the paper, and then outside?
My attacker was someone I've known for over ten years and was one of my best friends. The only thing I can "learn" from this is to become a hermit and never form bonds with anyone else ever again because I don't know who will end up betraying me next.
Imagine if instead, we tried to teach people not to assault and harass.

Every single adult is responsible for their own safety. Take that responsibility and be empowered by it rather than casting it off as someone else's problem.

As a rape survivor I wish that my mom or teachers or anyone had put more of a focus on personal accountability when I was growing up, maybe then I would have seen any of the plethora of warning signs when I was putting myself in harms way or been better prepared to protect myself.

I place 100% of the guilt for my situation squarely on the shoulders of the man who assaulted me. That doesn't mean that I still can't hope that girls growing up now learn better than I did to follow basic common sense safety tips.

At the end of the day there are some really sick people out in the world who want to hurt others in awful ways and the idea that there is any alternative to personal responsibilty and protection absolutely disgusts me. You don't teach a monster to not be a monster, you learn how to fight back.

I just couldn't leave this post unopposed, it's too harmful. Cheers.

Edit: Also I was distracted at first but the idea of subjecting people to "dont sexually assault others" courses or something is ludicrous. You can't teach someome with that kind of mental instability not to act on it and the way this feels aimed at men and boys just feels really wrong and sexist.

[BillyKaplan]

Every single adult is responsible for their own safety. Take that responsibility and be empowered by it rather than casting it off as someone else's problem.

I ask again, how do you cope with this when the person assaulting you is someone you've known for forever and trusted? How do you make yourself safe in that situation? Yes, it's important to not leave your drinks unattented in bars, and travel with a friend, and have people on your phone you can contact. There's a lot a person can do. But there's a limit to that as well, and acknowledging it isn't casting it off as someone else's problem. It's acknowledging a problem and the fact there's a limit to how much you can do on your own.

At the end of the day there are some really sick people out in the world who want to hurt others in awful ways

Ah ha. And this is where our views on the matter differ. I don't see people who assault and abuse and rape as sick. Are none of them sick in one way or another? Of course they are, it's nigh impossible for any sub-demographic to not have sub-groups mirroring the larger demographic. But, sadly, the guy who assaulted me was very much sane. He knew exactly what he was doing, he just neglected to ask for consent before touching. And he didn't see what was wrong with doing it while he was married, with his wife being a friend of mine at the time too. A moron? Yes. Socially inept? Probably. But he was sane. He was mentally stable, healthy, and very much capable of making his own decisions. He just made a very, very bad one.

I just couldn't leave this post unopposed, it's too harmful.

So is the misconception that anyone who performs any such misdeed is inherently sick in some way. As media likes to remind us, oftentimes the perpetrators come from good homes, are very good people otherwise, do well in school, etc. The only thing such a stance does is pose a threat to non-violent people who suffer from actual mental conditions and illnesses.

[Rogatum]

You teach them exactly that, rather than tell women and victims how to not be abused, which sadly seems to be the more popular approach to the matter. You (general) can also stop going easy when people are found guilty of abuse or harassment. "But he's such a good boy from a good home and he's a star student in college!" Uh, if the court just found him guilty of rape, I don't think he's such a good boy, and the punishment should reflect that. But because it's not only hard to get the guilty verdict, but the sentences are also laughable, people learn that they can get away with it. There need to be harsher consequences to these actions.



Uh, yes? "Someone with that mindset", how did they reach that mindset in the first place? No one's born with any mindset. They're raised and groomed into it. If you teach a boy from a young age that girls are people too just like they are (#INeedFeminismBecause), if you stop saying "boys will be boys" when they hurt someone, if you hold boys accountable to their actions from a young age instead of just expecting them to know better when they hit a certain age and then go easy on them when they don't, then they will know better when they grow up. They'll know women aren't there just for their sexual pleasure; they'll know that if they hurt someone, they'll be punished for it and not get a reduced sentence, so they'll be much less likely to commit the crime; they'll be decent human beings.



What are you going to do, teach yourself how to clean up after your dog, or get the dog used to only doing its stuff on the paper, and then outside?
My attacker was someone I've known for over ten years and was one of my best friends. The only thing I can "learn" from this is to become a hermit and never form bonds with anyone else ever again because I don't know who will end up betraying me next.
Imagine if instead, we tried to teach people not to assault and harass.

Teaching people to respect others, does not change the fact certain people in this world will prey on the weakness of others. No one asking people to become hermits but what people are saying is that everyone should understand that everything comes with inherent risk factors. In the end the only actions we can control are our own, providing children with the tool and information required to mitigate the risk factors goes a long way. Teaching children what they should do if they were raped or sexual harassed. To be honest, growing up not once was I ever told what someone should do after they were raped. Or what steps to take if you feel you are a victim of abuse, what steps to take if you are currently in a abusive relationship, and most importantly what are the signs of abuse and manipulation. These are things we should be teaching since these are things we can control. We cannot control the behavior of others. At the core I think you just have more faith in other people then I do, so I doubt we will ever understand where either of us are coming from. After I got mugged I developed the mindset what steps can I take to try and mitigate what happens to me. I tend to focus on the aspects of life I can control, not the behavior of others. If that makes sense.