Sexual harassment

[Zsolen]

People are always going to take advantage of others. No cultural shift will change that. Legislation can help with the perps, but nothing will stop the mentality of hurting others from continuing to happen.

[Rogatum]

I also agree, people will always prey on the weak. No change in culture will alter this fact. Though taking action in your ones own hands, seeking a community blacklist or shaming a person before anything can be proven without a reasonable doubt, is not justice. As the saying goes fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. The thing is people have been fooled so many times and their stories can be found people should learn from the experience of others and apply them to their own encounters. Do not repeat the mistakes of the past, we have no reason to. No one saying that this will make one immune to abuse or harassment, but at the very least it will make it that much harder for one to become a victim of it.

[Seig345]

The fault of abuse always lies with the abuser. That's the easy part.

The abused, however, garners a separate fault (fault in the abuser remains the same) the more times they find themselves abused by completely different abusers, and may need to seek professional help if that's the situation they find themselves in. "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me." That applies both to the same person fooling you twice as much as it applies to failing to learn that unfortunate lesson about humanity in general. Giving carte blanche to the accuser only opens up potential for another tool for the exact same kind of abuse.

One reasonable solution is simply raising awareness of abuse both towards yourself and recognizing when it's happening to a loved one, and any potential flaws in the legal system in regards to proper punishment for those who are caught and proven to be guilty of abuse.

The absolute solution would be World Peace; good luck with that.

[Melichoir]

Mm, sorry, but no.

Also, let's consider how often victims of this type of crime (sexual harassment or abuse) just get this exact type of response: "why weren't you more careful?"

There are a lot of numbers and studies out there that prove the perpetrators of these crimes don't get punished on near the same level as the perpetrators of other crimes because the legal system thinks the same way you do in regards to this topic, that the onus should have been on the victim, or at least more on the victim. It's nice that you believe in the law but the law isn't working. We need a cultural shift that doesn't focus so much on the victims that did nothing wrong.

The one whos probably in teh wrong here is you. Let me give you this as food for thought:



Should we feel sorry for you if you decide to deck yourself out in designer clothes, gold and jewels, stuff huge wads of cash in your pockets, and visit the darker side of a major city at 2 in teh morning, screaming at the top of your lungs about how expensive the stuff you have is and how much cash you have, and then what happens is someone mugs you.

Yes, the mugger is still responsible for the crime. It is their fault. But choosing to throw caution to the wind and not use any sense of reason or logic is on you.

Im not saying that people who get abused or taken advantage of are that extreme, nor that most are likely people getting swindled in similar fashion, but rather that its a stupid approach to say "Hey, do whatever you want, there are no consequences. If anything happens to you, youll never have any responsibility to bear for it happening." That just creates more victims by giving people a false sense of security and a lack of accountability.

And funny, I think that there's this terrible idea that having 'responsibility' for what happens to you is somehow akin to 'victim blaming.' Its not. Educating yourself, using pragmatism, and being very aware of what some actions may lead to is a hell of a lot more useful to a person and protecting themselves from harm. As an example, If you go to a frat party and you choose to get black out drunk and someone takes advantage of you, yeah that person is a PoS and scum and should be thrown off a cliff, but that doesnt excuse you from the fact that you participated in an activity that robbed you of your own agency and awareness. This isnt victim blaming, this is telling a person to be aware of the choices they make can have some pretty serious consequences. We should have compassion for victims, but make sure that its apparent that what lead to the terrible thing is addressed to. To give thsi context separated from harassment and the like, think about this: If you choose not to wear a seatbelt, if someone runs a red and slams into you, do you think people will tell you "Oh its not your fault. Its all on the guy who ran the red light. All the injury and suffering was their fault?" Most likely youre oging to hear people say "Yeah that guy ran a red, and its his fault, but why werent you wearing a seat belt too?"

Its not victim blaming to make sure people are aware of how they get to that point. Its making sure that people dont repeat the same mistake.


Also, if anything, I would hate to live in a world where the victim determines justice. Your view of the judicial system is flawed. It works on the premise "Innocent until proven guilty." That means that an accusation alone isnt justifiable enough cause to convict a person. Evidence must be given. And given things like harassment or even rape, those are objectively harder crimes to prove occurred, unfortunately. However, the idea youre advocating is "Guilty until proven innocent." Its based on the thought that the victim would never make up false accusations, and pushes the burden of proof unto the accused. And if its hard enough to convict on things like rape, imagine having to prove you didnt rape someone.

[MoroMurasaki]

Mm, sorry, but no.

Also, let's consider how often victims of this type of crime (sexual harassment or abuse) just get this exact type of response: "why weren't you more careful?"

There are a lot of numbers and studies out there that prove the perpetrators of these crimes don't get punished on near the same level as the perpetrators of other crimes because the legal system thinks the same way you do in regards to this topic, that the onus should have been on the victim, or at least more on the victim. It's nice that you believe in the law but the law isn't working. We need a cultural shift that doesn't focus so much on the victims that did nothing wrong.

Maybe don't try to be smarmy and condescending when your post relies on you being unable to understand mine. When you have any reputable statistics to show for this maybe you can attempt it as an argument.

Let's be clear as well - there is a difference between something being amoral and being inconsequential. Sending nude photos of yourself has no moral context as long as it's done between two consenting adults but it doesn't mean there won't be consequences to your actions. It seems like perhaps you don't understand the difference there.

I would never argue that legal action should be taken against the women in the TMP story who sent nudes to the accused, what he may or may not have done with them is 100% on his own shoulders, but you can't argue that they played no role in giving him the power to extort and blackmail them - they did, they made the conscious decision to send those photos. Acknowledging that they have made a stupid decision in no way diminishes his guilt in abusing that.

But you just stick your fingers in your ears and ignore logic, it's worked well for you up to this point.

[QT_Melon]

It's too bad that people only want to keep sticking to the photos aspect when there are the issues that the accused was doing behavior to a string of women. I guess we should blame the women giving out nudes because OBVIOUSLY he would have behaved himself otherwise I guess..

[Sigma-Astra]

Honestly, when an abuser gets outed as an abuser....word of mouth goes a long way in damaging what credibility that they have left. I'm not saying that's a perfect solution or a good punishment. But, it does help steer people away, the more people that know, the less likely others will be pulled into his web hopefully.

[Elamys]

When you have any reputable statistics to show for this maybe you can attempt it as an argument.

If you want statistics and information, then here's plenty for you.

Psychology Today has a pretty good article about why victims of harassment frequently don't speak up sooner ( https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/b...forward-sooner )

This sense of shame often causes victims to blame themselves for the sexual misconduct of their perpetrator. Case in point, Lee Corfman, the woman who reported to a Washington Post reporter that she was molested by Roy Moore when she was 14, said, “I felt responsible. I thought I was bad.” Time after time, clients who experienced sexual harassment at work or at school have told me things like: “I assumed it was my fault. I’m a very friendly person, and I always smiled and said hello to my boss. I think he must have thought I was flirting with him.” Another client, a student who was sexually assaulted by one of her college professors told me, “I liked all the attention I was getting from him. We’d sit for hours in his office talking, and I was learning a lot from him. I guess I was sending him the wrong message.”

The New York Times did a good writeup on reasons why people doubt harassment and sexual misconduct cases (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/30/u...ein-women.html) The reasons they have given are: they didn't act like a victim, they stayed friendly with their abuser, they didn't come forward right away, their story doesn't "add up," and they didn't fight back.

In relation specifically to sexual assault, MCASA's report on why survivors often don't report cites that it is often not reported because they believe it is not important enough, among a wide variety of other reasons. Only 9 percent of the perpetrators of sexual assault will ever be prosecuted. (https://ocrsm.umd.edu/files/Why-Is-S...r-Reported.pdf)

Vox did a really fantastic writeup on the prevalence of sexual harassment in the workplace (https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/...rassment-facts) citing a number of different studies, including the EEOC's 2016 study on sexual harassment (https://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/task_force...oad/report.pdf) which found that 75 percent of workplace harassment victims experienced retaliation upon reporting.

A lot of this underreporting comes down to a fear of retaliation from the employers or colleagues. Victims often fear they won’t be believed, or will receive blame or be subject to professional retaliation — like being fired from their jobs.

Culture Amp, a website about workplace culture, reported on an Australian Human Rights Commission survey that found only 20% of harassment victims reported (https://www.humanrights.gov.au/sites...on%20Final.pdf). CA interviewed the provider of a whistleblowing service for more information as to why victims don't report (https://blog.cultureamp.com/why-dont...ual-harassment).

Luker concedes this is still a common and open question. “Some of the headline reasons are a lack of support and protection,” he says. “People may not feel comfortable speaking up when there's a lack of robust policies, procedural rigor or reporting frameworks. Also, when there's a perceived or actual lack of consequences, lack of commitment from leaders or the feeling the perpetrator won't get caught because there won’t be a thorough investigation, people don’t feel safe reporting wrongdoing.”

Luker and the Your Call team have also seen people be held back by feelings of personal guilt about the incident, feelings that they somehow caused or contributed to the behavior of the perpetrator.

NBC News did another writeup concerning the physical and mental effects of not only harassment itself but also of reporting it (https://www.nbcnews.com/better/healt...ent-ncna810416)

Dr. Cullen adds that the feelings of shame or guilt that a person may feel when sexually harassed at work can devastate their self-esteem and sense of self-worth as a professional.

“They may feel that they did something to make this happen or egg it on in some way,” says Cullen.

...and on and on and on.

It only seems to be in cases of harassment and abuse that people are keen to lean on the "innocent until proven guilty" line (which only matters in an actual court, by the way, not the court of public opinion). I'm not going to sit here and say that you're not allowed to be skeptical, but that same skepticality should be applied equally to all crimes, and it just isn't. Referring back to the NYT article from earlier:

Partly this is because of widespread misconceptions. The public and the police vastly overestimate the incidence of false reports: The most solid, case-by-case examinations say that only 5 to 7 percent of sexual assault reports are false.

The Independent also did a good article on this subject of false reports (https://www.independent.co.uk/voices...-a8077876.html) which cites that the UK's Home Office found that only 4% of reports of sexual violence were found to be false.

TLDR: Victims already feel personal guilt; they already feel that they did something wrong; and when the perpetrators of abuse and harassment see that reports of such are overwhelmingly met with "why did you do X when you knew Y would happen" they may feel empowered to act this way because they think they won't face any repercussions for their actions. Victims don't falsely report any more than they do for any other crime; you're campaigning against an issue that doesn't exist and rubbing salt in the wounds victims already have.

Are you close to that victim? Did that victim ask for your help or your opinion? No? Then you don't need to talk about "what they could have done different."

[Rogatum]

That is the issue with court of public opinion people have, guilty until proven innocent is not justice and the outcries often follow a mob mentality. In any other context would you like to be put into the a position where the burden is on you to prove your innocence, when everyone already thinks you are guilty? Personally I would not, so I will give the accused and the accuser the same consideration that I would like to receive if I ever found myself in that situation. End of the day for even 4% is too high for me, if their a chance of false accusation I do think the public should respect that chance and give the accused a fair chance to defend themselves instead of blaming the legal system and taking justice in their own hands.

[Elamys]

That is the issue with court of public opinion people have, guilty until proven innocent is not justice and the outcries often follow a mob mentality. In any other context would you like to be put into the a position where the burden is on you to prove your innocence, when everyone already thinks you are guilty? Personally I would not, so I will give the accused and the accuser the same consideration that I would like to receive if I ever found myself in that situation. End of the day for even 4% is too high for me, if their a chance of false accusation I do think the public should respect that chance and give the accused a fair chance to defend themselves instead of blaming the legal system and taking justice in their own hands.

That's fine, it's just when people only take that view towards instances of abuse and harassment and never think that way when it comes to other crimes that it becomes a problem.