Sexual harassment

[Alleo]

@MoroMurasaki: Yes that is still at least fine but I would still look out for each case and see if that person can take it right now or not. Sometimes its maybe better to only support them and maybe talk with them about this later, when they are less emotional impacted by this. People just need to remember that not everyone will take everything the same way and for some this might be too much.

@Rogatum: You know that something like depression which can turn into something much worse, is an illness that is far from rational? I know of people that went through it and said that they would have never believed how much this could change you and how they never had thought that they would have certain thoughts while they suffered from it. Thats why its always important that someone is under watchful eyes if they get medicine against it because it can increase it. I am just saying that people need to be tactful with dealing with such a situation. Maybe some can take it, maybe some dont. Thus saying that you always should point out the things that they did wrong might not be the best and make it worse. In the end nothing stops someone from talking about this when the worst passed.

For example in your case the talking of the police helped you, in other cases some people can be traumatised by this and need more help than that and maybe the talk with the police might have increased the panic. (And I am not really sure if sexual abuse over months by a person that you fully trusted is comparable with that)

[Rogatum]

@Rogatum: You know that something like depression which can turn into something much worse, is an illness that is far from rational? I know of people that went through it and said that they would have never believed how much this could change you and how they never had thought that they would have certain thoughts while they suffered from it. Thats why its always important that someone is under watchful eyes if they get medicine against it because it can increase it. I am just saying that people need to be tactful with dealing with such a situation. Maybe some can take it, maybe some dont. Thus saying that you always should point out the things that they did wrong might not be the best and make it worse. In the end nothing stops someone from talking about this when the worst passed.

As others have mentioned and I am in agreement I do not think we should sugarcoat or set aside cases of poor judgement or mistakes. I am not saying getting mugged is the same as sexual abuse, but I tend to feel that a mistake is a mistake, executing poor judgment is executing poor judgement. Maybe I am just not expressing myself properly, I am not saying we should place all the blame on the victim, but they "need" to understand that if their actions played a role which lend them to a certain situation. We should not try to and say they are 100% to blame, but is the message we want to send to people is that there was nothing they could have done that could have prevented the situation? Overall I think my issue is if we start to pick and choosing which situations are appropriate to point out mistakes we get into areas as to where we draw the line. One example since someone in this thread brought up kidnapping. At the core what is different between a parent looking away for one brief moment the kid gets taken and is hurt vs a parent looking away and the kid ends up in a place they should not be and gets hurt. Some might view the kidnapping as different since the kid was taken, and the action of the child getting hurt was because of the person that took the kid. At at the core I feel they are the product of an inattentive parent, though most would call me insensitive for calling out the parents in former. I willing to bet most would put the blame on the parents for the latter though.

If that makes sense.

[BillyKaplan]

is the message we want to send to people is that there was nothing they could have done that could have prevented the situation? [..] Overall I think my issue is if we start to pick and choosing which situations are appropriate to point out mistakes we get into areas as to where we draw the line

I don't think anyone's saying that first part, but by virtue of the discussion everyone tilts harder into the extremes of their stances so it comes off like that. Lessons absolutely should be learned and applied moving forward. And if someone knows and still repeats those mistakes, there's room to discuss why that happens to them and that's another thing that needs to be addressed.
But it's subjective as all hell. I was assaulted by someone I've known and trusted for over a decade. Friends who knew about him absolutely learned to warn people from him now that it happened to me, because it's worth it more than the doubts of "will they believe me?" "will they be mad at me?" because at least then they'd have done what they could. But what is there for me to learn other than to never get intimate with other people?
Setting that aside, let's look at the healing process for a moment. Yes, people should learn from what happened if there's anything to learn there. But not everyone are wired the same. For some people, being told "next time do this and that", can easily translate into "you should've-" and that translates into guilt and self blame that can hold back their progress.
Some people can stand to be told what they did wrong and learn from it. They might truly be empowered by it. Others are already painfully aware, so the last thing they need is to be reminded of what they did wrong. Every recovery should be considered carefully on its own, taking into account the individual and circumstances. That's why we have literally entire professions dedicated to therapy and mental studies, because no two people are the same.

[QT_Melon]

So knowing this thread was prompted by a very publicated incident. I actually went around seeing the info posted by all those involved (note, not just the blogs and twitter). Wow. It shows how myopic a lot of this advice people in this thread are giving. This isn't about the easily identifiable predator that flashes his junk and runs off to find another victim. Maybe an online comparison, isn't some random after losing the pony sends some message about some girl's privates to the winner of the mount.

This is about people who formed friendships with each other. Maybe people didn't see those posts but even the defenders of the accused are torn by this...ie his friends They don't want to see both sides tearing at each other. They even show things like remorse, real remorse. I don't think many involved really don't know how to deal with it, because it's likely most of them got the "well just block and move on" or "you shouldn't have done that in the first place" generic advice you'd get in a fortune cookie.

So I agree there has to be more to the discussion than sitting on those types of positions.

On the note about witnessing more dialog from the incident that prompted this thread. One thing I did notice is that again, for the most part the parties from opposing sides (save one person), that have publicly spoken out (in areas where other people can read). Have shown remorse. The victims have shown a lot of regret in certain parts of their actions and have blamed themselves. Others are showing remorse because it may mean attacking another friend (whether for or against). Some have stated it might mean taking down people they feel are being used. They also have mentioned they have sought therapy to deal with accountability.

Not all the victims are friends with each other, they are at odds with a lot of things the others have done in the past - they do agree however, that the behavior of the accused needs to be called out and stopped. It damaged their community, and is still damaging their community. So despite being at odds with each other, some came forward as anonymous. Others haven't gone on the blogs, but have spoken out about similar problems from the accused.

The only person I haven't really seen real remorse in rebuttals or statements, is the accused. Nothing about seeking help himself.

I mean, he did apologize at first, but then retracted...it was about some kind of blog war about tearing the other down - with no remorse.

I think the overall situation is sad especially how eye opening it was to see two parties at odds (friends of the accuser, and victims and friends) admit some sympathy and remorse in all of this, yet people want to stick to the bland and useless advice of "block and move on" or "don't share private photos"....especially since I have no doubt other small/large circles might have similar issues.

[Miyha]

The only person I haven't really seen real remorse in rebuttals or statements, is the accused. Nothing about seeking help himself.

I mean, he did apologize at first, but then retracted...it was about some kind of blog war about tearing the other down - with no remorse.

This whole post is golden and you are a saint.

I wanted to address this part in particular though because it relates to my own experience.

This guy doesn't feel remorse. Just like my abuser, they both have a certain classification in common: they are sociopaths. If you look up the diagnostic criteria of sociopathy, it practically describes every aspect of these people to the dot.

My abuser apologized vehemently and tried to make good with the community after I shared my story. (After all, if everyone knew how scummy he was, he wouldn't get anyone to fall for his ruse anymore.)

Over two years later, he had the GALL to the email me (I cut off everything else but didn't think he'd have my email) and say, "Hey doll, how are you doing?"

Luckily this was after my recovery, so I had the presence of mind to brush it off, delete the email, and blacklist his email without a word back to him. I refuse to give him the satisfaction.

But yeah, these people are flat out disgusting predators. They feel no remorse, and they will continue to victimize and feed on the vulnerable. People who say "well you shouldn't have shared photos", "block and move on", and "lol drama" without a modicum of sympathy are, for all intents and purposes, victim blamers, and are hardly any better than the abusers themselves. Y'all are genuinely abhorrent specimens of humanity.

[QT_Melon]

But yeah, these people are flat out disgusting predators. They feel no remorse, and they will continue to victimize and feed on the vulnerable. People who say "well you shouldn't have shared photos", "block and move on", and "lol drama" without a modicum of sympathy are, for all intents and purposes, victim blamers, and are hardly any better than the abusers themselves. Y'all are genuinely abhorrent specimens of humanity.

To be fair a lot of the crowd only gets some of the information, and doesn't really go in depth in finding out what was going on. I mean that's my frustration with the whole thing. In generalized terms, their advice is okay, but it's like "Remember kids, don't talk to strangers" refusing to think outside the box. A teacher is a stranger too, by that regard...but eventually they become something more - your mentor or advisor. It's harder when it's someone you care about or respect, others respect or care about.

Online interaction has become a big part of our lives, we talk to relatives, and other people now where we wouldn't have if technology hasn't improved to make it easier to do so, and I think thus we need to improve our ways of thinking about those interactions. I get how the internet is an escape and some degree of privacy should be given to us for that...and I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I have all the answers either. I just know this isn't some cut and dry or superficial "Jerry's (Springer) final thoughts".

[Zsolen]

It's not hard at all. I've done it plenty of times. Yes, even when I was younger. You don't send a mentor nudes of yourself.

[Miyha]

To be fair a lot of the crowd only gets some of the information, and doesn't really go in depth in finding out what was going on. I mean that's my frustration with the whole thing. In generalized terms, their advice is okay, but it's like "Remember kids, don't talk to strangers" refusing to think outside the box. A teacher is a stranger too, by that regard...but eventually they become something more - your mentor or advisor. It's harder when it's someone you care about or respect, others respect or care about.

Online interaction has become a big part of our lives, we talk to relatives, and other people now where we wouldn't have if technology hasn't improved to make it easier to do so, and I think thus we need to improve our ways of thinking about those interactions. I get how the internet is an escape and some degree of privacy should be given to us for that...and I'm not gonna sit here and pretend I have all the answers either. I just know this isn't some cut and dry or superficial "Jerry's (Springer) final thoughts".

I do agree with this, and it frustrates me too that people don't hold their judgement until they have sufficient information, especially on such a sensitive matter. In this case though, it seems like a great deal of the information was laid out in that article, with links to sources, and a lot of these people giving this half-hearted "advice" just didn't read the damn thing. Some people, however, just flat out dismiss the victim and the situation as "drama" and seem to not only display zero sympathy for the victim, but also find the situation humorous. That's not just ignorance, those are people who need something like that to happen to them. Those are the people who need to be made to feel like the garbage they are. Maybe then they'd be able to approach the situation with some real human empathy.

Sorry if I sound harsh, but as someone who has gone through something very similar (luckily I didn't share personal photos, no matter how much my abuser pressured me), this subject is kind of personal, and these people make me physically ill.

It's not hard at all. I've done it plenty of times. Yes, even when I was younger. You don't send a mentor nudes of yourself.

People like this. I think you missed the entire goddamn point of them drawing that comparison. See:

A teacher is a stranger too, by that regard...but eventually they become something more - your mentor or advisor. It's harder when it's someone you care about or respect, others respect or care about.

Since it seems like I have to explain the basic process of forming human connections with another human: the teacher to mentor comparison was meant to illustrate how people can grow from a stranger to someone more. How a person can earn someone's trust and respect. It's even harder not to give in to someone you trust and care even deeper about and would do absolutely anything to prevent them from abandoning you. They're not talking about sending nudes to a damn mentor. They're talking about appeasing the person you've centered your world around.

Now, you and your small mind are probably thinking, "Lol, well don't make someone the center of your world like that."

Tell that to someone who is struggling with depression, anxiety, self-esteem issues, loneliness, and a whole host of other issues and develop a need to have some kind of anchor to support them. When a person like that is in danger of losing their anchor, they will do anything to keep them around. I know I would have, which is why it's a wonder how I didn't end up caving into the pressure I endured to send explicit photos. See my previous posts for a more elaborate explanation (though it seems you lack reading comprehension skills, so I'm not sure what good that will do).

If you don't know what something like that feels like, good for you. You haven't had to deal with the trauma victims of this kind of a abuse had to endure to demolish their self-esteem to that point. But if you can't say anything outside of "lol it's not that hard"? Get out of this damn discussion. Without basic human sympathy, your opinions on the matter aren't relevant.

Forget about yourselves for a moment... how you'd respond in a situation like this doesn't matter... if you're strong and aware and stable enough to protect yourself good for you... think instead of the weak, damaged, lost, lonely, and those of not sound mind and reason... what kind of community are we if we are so willing to cast aside those who can't help themselves simply because we don't have those same weaknesses?

Based on the flaming pile of garbage I've seen some people spew in this thread, I don't think some people are capable of empathizing with those who have suffered in that way. They're incapable of thinking beyond their narrow views of the world and understanding human emotion and mental health and how it can play into the actions a person takes. It's for this reason I am so adamant about making it known that as a victim myself, I will stand up to their ignorance and that they do not make up the majority of our community. I want to be proof of that.

[polyphonica]

I don't think some people are capable of empathizing with those who have suffered in that way. They're incapable of thinking beyond their narrow views of the world and understanding human emotion and mental health and how it can play into the actions a person takes.

Honestly, for a lot of people, I don't think they treat the interactions they have online as if they were dealing with real people. Besides this thread, you also see it all over social media. It's as if they're talking only to avatars/personas controlled by other people, rather than to the person themselves. Of course, literally in this game, you're controlling an avatar, but unless you're 100% RP all the time, the interactions you have are still with real people, and those people can still have real personalities, struggles, issues, etc. If we were all in the same room, there are tons of social and emotional cues that help most people understand the right and wrong ways to interact with someone who's distressed (or at least help you to understand when it's not the right time or you don't have the right social context/relationship to lecture someone for their mistakes); people who interact in inappropriate ways in public are typically shunned or shamed. But online, it's as though all the social and emotional cues are gone or only exist as a way to manipulate others.

I suspect it'll probably be at least another generation or two before society as a whole develops the social norms to combine anonymity with empathy. Right now, I think too many people are, at some level, still enamored with the idea that anonymity is a sort of freedom from human empathy -- that it means they "no longer need to pretend to care" and can just "tell it as it is" without consequence. Ultimately, though, society is founded on a concept of civility, and the internet itself has become a key part of our society; our children or our children's children will probably have to make up for what our generation lacks.

[Okamimaru]

Forget about yourselves for a moment... how you'd respond in a situation like this doesn't matter... if you're strong and aware and stable enough to protect yourself good for you... think instead of the weak, damaged, lost, lonely, and those of not sound mind and reason... what kind of community are we if we are so willing to cast aside those who can't help themselves simply because we don't have those same weaknesses?