Stop with the pay to win advanages for retainers, suggestions on fixes

[Reynhart]

"In some multiplayer free-to-play games, players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free. Some critics of such games call them "pay-to-win" or "p2w" games. A common suggestion for avoiding pay-to-win is that payments should only be used to broaden the experience without affecting gameplay.[34]"

Having more slots to sell is still not a "significant advantage" since you still have to play more to obtain those items in the first place and no goal in this game requires that additionnal surge of gils. On a sidenote, did you read the article linked in your quote ?

The much maligned ‘pay to win’ label in the West, where users can only really advance by handing over money, is pretty much a standard for distribution and financial gain in China.

Competition drives everything, and gear purchased for real money in any number of online games bestows substantial statistical benefits, a system that hasn’t found a lot of success in attempts to open these types of games to Western audiences.

You can "advance" without paying something, and there's nothing competitive in "just earning gils".

If you can find another one, feel free to provide it.

Urban dictionnary

Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

Let's recap something.
Buying 1.0 collector's edition gave you an item to earn more Xp before lvl10 (You can't have this without paying)
Buying 2.0 collector's eidtion gave you an free favored destination (You can't have this without paying)
Buying Stormblood collector's edition gave you an earring to earn more Xp before until lvl50 (You can't have this without paying)
You consider those pay-to-win too ?

I think enabling someone to literally own the market board is more "power" then giving someone +10000 to your primary stat. One lets you solo savage... who cares? while the other leads to making people miserable.

Ok, that was the best joke I read here since years. Sure, the world first race is followed by the whole raiding community, the dev team, the producer himself and lots of players who like to see how those people surpass themselves, ariyala and fflogs only goal is to give player the most information on how they can improve how they play the game and how they compare to each other...but it's nothing against gaining more gils when no one even know, or give a damn, about the names of the richest people in the game.
Take a like for the good laugh.

[MintnHoney]

So, on the one hand, we have an app that's the scourge of subscription gaming, capable of bringing development down the path of microtransaction f2p hell.
On the other hand, per the ones seemingly defending the app, we actually have an app that's turned out to be dull and incapable of providing any real difference in the gaming experience of FFXIV, but does give you the option to give Square more money (just in case you feel like it) in exchange for features you technically already have access to.

Either way, it seems Square has managed to spend much time, effort, and money into developing something unsatisfactory.

[polyphonica]

Even after explaining it to you, you still miss the point. It has nothing to do with convenience. It has to do with productivity. The difference with the app and not having the app is HUGE for career crafters, and all the career crafters that post here say the same thing, this app and P2W system is very problematic to their enjoyment, where that top 1% of 1% (very few people, as in 1 per server if that) will full out abuse it.

At this point, we don't even know if it will be possible to have multiple devices connected simultaneously on the same service account. (I assume probably not, since it'd be like account-sharing.) We also don't know if there will be any sort of caps or rate-limiting on market board access with MogCoins (such as a daily purchase limit, or daily spending cap). We also don't know just how fast the app UI and its interaction with the server is going to be in comparison to the in-game method. So there are a lot of details that aren't yet clear that will have a significant impact on the app's "productivity" benefit. And in the end, it's really easy to put sensible limits in place that would prevent someone from "abusing the market" with the app, without undermining the overall intention and functionality. So I think that dwelling on this edge case as the underlying concern isn't really effective. It would be more effective, as the poster you quoted did, just focusing on the fact that people don't like being nickle-and-dimed when they're already paying for the game and a subscription, because that's an overall sentiment that I think many agree with in general (whether or not this particular app crosses the line for them).

[SinisterJoints]

I literally resubbed just so I can post in these "pay to win" threads.

So by most of your arguments that this is pay to win...

SO is my legacy account
So are the 4 extra retainers I pay for


These dramatic, nonsensical arguments need to stop. It's getting rather annoying and frustrating because they never stop.

To be perfectly honest, the apps concept (imo) is garbage. They want real money to change MB listing via mobile phones etc. Anyone who pays for that is stupid.

I'm all for threads that share the same mindset (that the app is garbage) but all this "OMG ITS PAY TO WIN" nonsense is...well...nonsense.

Even after explaining it to you, you still miss the point. It has nothing to do with convenience. It has to do with productivity. The difference with the app and not having the app is HUGE for career crafters, and all the career crafters that post here say the same thing, this app and P2W system is very problematic to their enjoyment, where that top 1% of 1% (very few people, as in 1 per server if that) will full out abuse it. (Claiming to have xyz leveled or being an "omicrafter" has no baring in being a career crafter. some people play this game spending all thier time crafting , gathering, and making gil cuz that is what they find fun. Just because you have little interest in something does not mean there is no P2W because "it doesn't effect anything" These are the people that still collect gil even after having a retainer or three with cap gil.)




No it is not, career crafters don't want this in the game. Wonderful, you like screwing over people with different tastes then you.

Ok what? what productivity? I'm a career crafter, 2 accounts with all max crafters and gatherers on both. This new app will have absolutely NO effect on MB transactions that already don't take place. being a "career crafter" you should know this already. If someone wants to relist and undercut all day long nothing is stopping them from doing so. They just have to log in...there literally is ZERO DIFFERENCE (other than convenience) . People want to pay more for something they are already paying for??? (at a premium price I might add) then so be it. I think you personally Vstar, are making this a mountain out of a molehill for no reason other than to dust off your pitchfork (which shouldnt even be dusty considering )

[MomomiMomi]

Having more slots to sell is still not a "significant advantage" since you still have to play more to obtain those items in the first place and no goal in this game requires that additionnal surge of gils. On a sidenote, did you read the article linked in your quote?

We clearly disagree on it being a significant advantage. It allows for 5x more item listings and retainer ventures. That is significant by any measure of the word.

I also did indeed read that article. I actually had to put it there on purpose because otherewise the link wouldn't have been there, and it would have only linked to wikipedia's citations part of the page even if it was. I also figured you would nitpick on that portion of the article, where your literal interpretation strikes again. If you've ever played one of those types of games before, you would know that you can advance without paying. It's just slower to do so.

Let's recap something.
Buying 1.0 collector's edition gave you an item to earn more Xp before lvl10 (You can't have this without paying)
Buying 2.0 collector's eidtion gave you an free favored destination (You can't have this without paying)
Buying Stormblood collector's edition gave you an earring to earn more Xp before until lvl50 (You can't have this without paying)
You consider those pay-to-win too ?

Yes, but more limited and less worrying forms of it. Once you've leveled up beyond the max level of the item, it stops giving most of its advantage. And once you've reached maxed level, there is no more advantage at all.

I also don't consider the jump potions to be very worrying for the same reasons. That doesn't mean they aren't still forms of pay-to-win, just more limited versions of it.

For the record, though I'm less worried about those, I still disagree with their existence.

[Vstarstruck]

At this point, we don't even know if it will be possible to have multiple devices connected simultaneously on the same service account. (I assume probably not, since it'd be like account-sharing.) We also don't know if there will be any sort of caps or rate-limiting on market board access with MogCoins (such as a daily purchase limit, or dailyspending cap). We also don't know just how fast the app UI and its interaction with the server is going to be in comparison to the in-game method. So there are a lot of details that aren't yet clear that will have a significant impact on the app's "productivity" benefit. And in the end, it's really easy to put sensible limits in place that would prevent someone from "abusing the market" with the app, without undermining the overall intention and functionality. So I think that dwelling on this edge case as the underlying concern isn't really effective. It would be more effective, as the poster you quoted did, just focusing on the fact that people don't like being nickle-and-dimed when they're already paying for the game and a subscription, because that's an overall sentiment that I think many agree with in general (whether or not this particular app crosses the line for them).

You are assuming SE has some sense, with this app, and greed wide change... msq change... "innovate content" turning into fate running, Personal housing supposed to be cheaper and different then FC housing, not attaching sub fee to keeping your house (to name a few), i think it is safe to go by with what they tell us. Sure you may be right, but you can still attach it to an alt on your account, and have easy access to 400 slots streamlined (or 380 if you wanna throw an argument we do not know if only one character gets the 10th retainer) That is still a significant gap to warrant pay to win as far as career sellers. Also it is still 1460 more slots (assuming only 1 chr gets 10th retainer) over 320 base sub.

I literally resubbed just so I can post in these "pay to win" threads.

So by most of your arguments that this is pay to win...

SO is my legacy account
So are the 4 extra retainers I pay for


These dramatic, nonsensical arguments need to stop. It's getting rather annoying and frustrating because they never stop.

To be perfectly honest, the apps concept (imo) is garbage. They want real money to change MB listing via mobile phones etc. Anyone who pays for that is stupid.

I'm all for threads that share the same mindset (that the app is garbage) but all this "OMG ITS PAY TO WIN" nonsense is...well...nonsense.

What is really annoying is people not understanding what pay to win means and refers to. In other words, your nonsense post is well, nonsense. Stop dismissing what people say so easily because you do not understand it?

pay to win, paying real life money for an advantage over someone else, retainers and that app FIT the definition.

We clearly disagree on it being a significant advantage. It allows for 5x more item listings and retainer ventures. That is significant by any measure of the word.

Exactly.

Ok what? what productivity? I'm a career crafter, 2 accounts with all max crafters and gatherers on both. This new app will have absolutely NO effect on MB transactions that already don't take place. being a "career crafter" you should know this already. If someone wants to relist and undercut all day long nothing is stopping them from doing so. They just have to log in...there literally is ZERO DIFFERENCE (other than convenience) . People want to pay more for something they are already paying for??? (at a premium price I might add) then so be it. I think you personally Vstar, are making this a mountain out of a molehill for no reason other than to dust off your pitchfork (which shouldnt even be dusty considering )

I think you are underplaying what is being presented here, also I am not the only one calling this pay to win and harmful, so do not go on singling me out. No it is not a "mountain out of a molehill" is your server economy that slow you have ZERO competition to claim this time does not matter in boosting your productivity? I guess you never seen 2 people price change every split second for 1 hour straight. When you are clicking that much to price change, that is a FULL hour being unproductive that could been prevented with this app (and paying a ton of money ofc, prob why SE made it this way, app and the MB)

I am getting sick of SE putting a price tag ontop of things you're already paying for. I don't think it's the worst thing in the world to have the mogstation by any means and I'm glad if that money can be funneled back into the game in order to increase its quality. However, over time I'm beginning to see more and more items added directly to the mogstation with no way to earn it in-game. The prices keep increasing by ridiculous amounts (seriously, $12 USD for that stupid mega flare? What?) and all the while, I'm not seeing any drastic improvements to the game that I wouldn't have expected them to do by default in the first place. Where are the better graphics? Where are the quality of life changes? Why can I still not search FC's in a list to decide which I want to apply for? Why can I not choose a minimum price before aetheryte tickets are consumed? Why do I not have enough space for all of my gear despite already paying for additional retainers? Why can't I put mogstation items in the armoire? Why was the glamour dresser this convoluted system rather than a SIMPLE and easy to use system that we had been asking for? Why do textures still look like shit? Why can I only pick between FOUR preset face options for my character? Why can't I change the eye color of my character at the aesthetician despite them saying initially before it was released that we'd be able to? And why can Aura change their limbal ring color if eye color is too "far fetched" to be changed (contacts though?)? Why is Eureka so damn buggy?

And now, you're telling me that on top of all of this.... On top of paying for the base game, expansions, monthly sub and overpriced mogstation items... they want to add in microtransactions for a mobile app that will give those who pay the monthly fee to use it an advantage over those who dont? I'm getting so fed up with this. I LOVE crafting. I LOVE "market board PVP". You already have to pay extra every MONTH for additional retainers if you really want to be relevant in that and now there's this...?? Ugh.

Did I mention that they also have symphonies and an overpriced themed Eorzea Cafe which makes them a lot of money?

I have so much respect for the development team. Seriously, if you look into the history of this MMO it is by far the most fascinating history of any MMO to date. What they did was miraculous and I have nothing but respect for them and I think they deserve to make money off this game but come on. This is reaching EA levels of gross. Does SE really want to have the kind of backlash that EA has been subjected to lately???? They are spending too much time and money on these cash grabs than they are on the game itself and I'm getting really disheartened. At this point it's beginning to feel like a F2P...but it's not. :/

When the mogstation was first released, I was a bit angry. But I understood that this game had initially cost the company a lot of money and strife so I accepted it. And it's just the way the world works today, so fair enough. But now? Square, I'd rather pay $20 a month to have access to everything than to keep this cashgrab bullshit going on.

Zalera server

I also don't consider the jump potions to be very worrying for the same reasons. That doesn't mean they aren't still forms of pay-to-win, just more limited versions of it.

For the record, though I'm less worried about those, I still disagree with their existence.

I agree, because they do not effect others, this pay to win app does.

So, on the one hand, we have an app that's the scourge of subscription gaming, capable of bringing development down the path of microtransaction f2p hell.
On the other hand, per the ones seemingly defending the app, we actually have an app that's turned out to be dull and incapable of providing any real difference in the gaming experience of FFXIV, but does give you the option to give Square more money (just in case you feel like it) in exchange for features you technically already have access to.

Either way, it seems Square has managed to spend much time, effort, and money into developing something unsatisfactory.

interesting viewpoint tbh, in the end both sides show the app isn't a good thing.

[polyphonica]

When you are clicking that much to price change, that is a FULL hour being unproductive that could been prevented with this app (and paying a ton of money ofc, prob why SE made it this way, app and the MB)

You're just replacing your hour of clicking with an hour of tapping, and paying a microtransaction every time. Your time is still being wasted either way, and now you're wasting money too. Being able to do this at the beach or wherever doesn't mean much if you're still that glued to the market board.

[MomomiMomi]

You're just replacing your hour of clicking with an hour of tapping, and paying a microtransaction every time. Your time is still being wasted either way, and now you're wasting money too. Being able to do this at the beach or wherever doesn't mean much if you're still that glued to the market board.

The problem is that it has negative affects on others, e.g., someone paying for this is wasting my time by being able to more readily adjust their prices.

[polyphonica]

The problem is that it has negative affects on others, e.g., someone paying for this is wasting my time by being able to more readily adjust their prices.

Well, honestly, I'm not sure that it's that much more "readily" than if they were just in the game proper, and they're paying a penalty to do so. It basically just means that people whose life circumstances allow them to stay at their computer/console more now face a little bit more potential competition from people who would otherwise be AFK. It rebalances market power slightly away from the so-called "no-lifers," but at a literal price (that the vast majority will never pay).

[Ruf]

I literally resubbed just so I can post in these "pay to win" threads.

To be perfectly honest, the apps concept (imo) is garbage.

I'm not sure that i understand... but ty for validing this with your opinion.