Stop with the pay to win advanages for retainers, suggestions on fixes

[Vstarstruck]

Are you really actually worried that people are truly going to be sitting there with an array of smartphones on multiple game characters/accounts and spending MogCoin withoutcare just so they can edge out their competition on their server's FFXIV marketboard, who can't possibly keep up because multiboxing and price adjusting in the game proper is slightly more tedious (even though it's at no transaction cost)?

People? no.. also I explained why someone would do it while on the game itself, for TIME. you can lose a sale it takes to switch chrs and other thins, pulling materials out of retainers. This is why career crafters have their most visited retainer have slower moving things or generally less valuable selling things.

For the thousandth time though, I am not worried about "people" I know "people" will not be doing this, I get it from the boards career crafters are a minority. What I am worried about is that ONE PERSON that wants to abuse this. With this app, esp on duel box can control the MB if they wish with this app, that simple. Will it actually happen? no idea, all I know is with some people spending thousands of dollars on meaningless phone games, I have to say the chances are pretty good for that one person to pop up.

for having an army of iphones to back that up? I can see it happening unless SE is going to resist it one per account and they did not say one way or the other on that matter. I mean... there is always an outlier that does stuff like this. (guy throwing money away destroying tons of iphones)

Ofc this is getting off topic and leads to other stawmans (i am sure you or others will "defeat" what I said above order to prove "not to worry about it" or "not a big deal") You shouldn't be selling power of any form, retainers and app gives you more selling power, gives you increased gil gain opportunity over someone not buying the extra fees. Not really fair to try to "encourage" spending on micro transactions on undercut spam, in an environment that promotes undercut spam (i/e provoking those whales to whale on this)

That is, if SE sold an item called "God Avenger", and it gave you +10000 to your primary stat, and was only available on the cash shop, that would be selling power. that item alone would give you a strategic advantage over ALL the other players i the game who do not have that item.

Now, the app is a touch different because having extra retainers or teh ability to change market board pricings does not provide some definitive advantage to the games power structure. GIL, for what it is, does not directly translate into Power in FFXIV.

I think enabling someone to literally own the market board is more "power" then giving someone +10000 to your primary stat. One lets you solo savage... who cares? while the other leads to making people miserable.

This right here shows how skewed your reasoning on this really is.

You stating this only shows your bias and skewed views. "Only battle content matters" I do not think so.

[MageBlack]

I think enabling someone to literally own the market board is more "power" then giving someone +10000 to your primary stat. One lets you solo savage... who cares? while the other leads to making people miserable.

This right here shows how skewed your reasoning on this really is.

[polyphonica]

You shouldn't be selling power of any form, retainers and app gives you more selling power, gives you increased gil gain opportunity over someone not buying the extra fees. Not really fair to try to "encourage" spending on micro transactions on undercut spam, in an environment that promotes undercut spam (i/e provoking those whales to whale on this)

So, as I said earlier, it is actually a discussion about mechanics and semantics. If they got rid of retainer market privileges and just made it by character or by account, you could still make more characters or more accounts. So "power" would always be sold regardless; it's only a question of how tedious/time-consuming it would be. What seems to have been the straw that broke the camel's back for you is just that the app makes it faster/more convenient than the in-game means, plus Square Enix is marketing this point specifically, and so you feel like people who want to be competitive on the market are being "provoked" into spending on the app. So, it's about the "accessibility" and "ease" of the specific mechanics and how obvious/blatant they are doing the "upsell." This is honestly what most "pay to win" discussions boil down to, in the end.

[Vstarstruck]

So, as I said earlier, it is actually a discussion about mechanics and semantics. If they got rid of retainer market privileges and just made it by character or by account, you could still make more characters or more accounts. So "power" would always be sold regardless; it's only a question of how tedious/time-consuming it would be. What seems to have been the straw that broke the camel's back for you is just that the app makes it faster/more convenient than the in-game means, plus Square Enix is marketing this point specifically,and so you feel like people who want to be competitive on the market are being "provoked" into spending on the app. So, it's about the "accessibility" and "ease" of the specific mechanics and how obvious/blatant they are doing the "upsell." This is honestly what most "pay to win" discussions boil down to, in the end.

Even after explaining it to you, you still miss the point. It has nothing to do with convenience. It has to do with productivity. The difference with the app and not having the app is HUGE for career crafters, and all the career crafters that post here say the same thing, this app and P2W system is very problematic to their enjoyment, where that top 1% of 1% (very few people, as in 1 per server if that) will full out abuse it. (Claiming to have xyz leveled or being an "omicrafter" has no baring in being a career crafter. some people play this game spending all thier time crafting , gathering, and making gil cuz that is what they find fun. Just because you have little interest in something does not mean there is no P2W because "it doesn't effect anything" These are the people that still collect gil even after having a retainer or three with cap gil.)

As you put it, this discussion boils down to, do not put pay to win in a sub game, no matter the form, the end.

Name one thing that I can only get from spending gil on the market boards that would require me to amass huge quantities of gil? I'll wait...

IT DOES NOT MATTER! how do people not understand some people like making gil just to do so?!!?!?!? this app harms those people by a great deal. Other career crafters have said the same thing here, one having 107+ likes on the post. STOP!! arguing semantics over the word WIN (When you start talking about what you buy for gil and how it "does not matter" it is only done because you want to ague what win means)

I am getting sick of SE putting a price tag ontop of things you're already paying for. I don't think it's the worst thing in the world to have the mogstation by any means and I'm glad if that money can be funneled back into the game in order to increase its quality. However, over time I'm beginning to see more and more items added directly to the mogstation with no way to earn it in-game. The prices keep increasing by ridiculous amounts (seriously, $12 USD for that stupid mega flare? What?) and all the while, I'm not seeing any drastic improvements to the game that I wouldn't have expected them to do by default in the first place. Where are the better graphics? Where are the quality of life changes? Why can I still not search FC's in a list to decide which I want to apply for? Why can I not choose a minimum price before aetheryte tickets are consumed? Why do I not have enough space for all of my gear despite already paying for additional retainers? Why can't I put mogstation items in the armoire? Why was the glamour dresser this convoluted system rather than a SIMPLE and easy to use system that we had been asking for? Why do textures still look like shit? Why can I only pick between FOUR preset face options for my character? Why can't I change the eye color of my character at the aesthetician despite them saying initially before it was released that we'd be able to? And why can Aura change their limbal ring color if eye color is too "far fetched" to be changed (contacts though?)? Why is Eureka so damn buggy?

And now, you're telling me that on top of all of this.... On top of paying for the base game, expansions, monthly sub and overpriced mogstation items... they want to add in microtransactions for a mobile app that will give those who pay the monthly fee to use it an advantage over those who dont? I'm getting so fed up with this. I LOVE crafting. I LOVE "market board PVP". You already have to pay extra every MONTH for additional retainers if you really want to be relevant in that and now there's this...?? Ugh.

Did I mention that they also have symphonies and an overpriced themed Eorzea Cafe which makes them a lot of money?

I have so much respect for the development team. Seriously, if you look into the history of this MMO it is by far the most fascinating history of any MMO to date. What they did was miraculous and I have nothing but respect for them and I think they deserve to make money off this game but come on. This is reaching EA levels of gross. Does SE really want to have the kind of backlash that EA has been subjected to lately???? They are spending too much time and money on these cash grabs than they are on the game itself and I'm getting really disheartened. At this point it's beginning to feel like a F2P...but it's not. :/

When the mogstation was first released, I was a bit angry. But I understood that this game had initially cost the company a lot of money and strife so I accepted it. And it's just the way the world works today, so fair enough. But now? Square, I'd rather pay $20 a month to have access to everything than to keep this cashgrab bullshit going on.

Haven't posted before, but had to chime in because the hysteria is real. Isn't 'literally own the market board' a bit hyperbolic?

with this app? the fact I know someone that could do 3200 slots (duo box accounts both with 8 chrs x 10 retainers) no, not at all I am being dead serious when I say someone can control the MB (well all the things of value anyway, picture a resource limited glam, like company hat a few weeks ago being tied with glam weekly) with this app and 10 retainers, x 8 chrs. As I said It will be limited, maybe 1 per server if that (though be amusing if 2 happen be on the same server) It is only question will someone actually do it. The ability to do so with the app is there, only a question if someone will do it (the person I know is not going to due to moral reasons, for example)

Yes it is logically not worth it, what do you think my point was a few posts ago? Some people throw money around doing crazier things then this, so the possibility is defiantly there.

My point it should not be POSSIBLE AT ALL! do not enable such a thing. You shouldn't have pay to win stuff like this esp in a subscription model!

Yay the fearmongering continues. Going to get the app, going to tell others my benefits and advocate for it. Will even go the extra mile to rate it in the app store. I am so stoked for additional connectivity to this game I love.

No it is not, career crafters don't want this in the game. Wonderful, you like screwing over people with different tastes then you.

[MageBlack]

IT DOES NOT MATTER! how do people not understand some people like making gil just to do so?!!?!?!? this app harms those people by a great deal. Other career crafters have said the same thing here, one having 107+ likes on the post. STOP!! arguing semantics over the word WIN (When you start talking about what you buy for gil and how it "does not matter" it is only done because you want to ague what win means)

It does matter, semantics matter. We have words for a reason. Wow, a whole 107 likes! you must be proud! With a population of 10 mil-ish you are off to a great start! There are better posts talking about more pressing issues that had 100x the "likes" and nothing was done.

There are players that only want to collect minions, is it then pay to win having them on the mogstation and as parts of RL promotions and keycodes? Hey, I want to collect all the dyes in the game, I guess the mog station is pay to win. Amassing gil for the sake of amassing gil might be one persons goal, good for them... you can scream that at me till you are blue in the face, it still wont change the fact that for the majority of players it wont make a lick of difference.

You are cherry-picking your arguments and, as I said before, you are looking very foolish...

Let's be real here. There are likely less than 1 million active players. Closer to about 650k.

Lmao, that is entirely true! The rest are probably bots. I was just going by the (conflated) numbers SE throws out there to (ahem) further their cause.

[MomomiMomi]

It does matter, semantics matter. We have words for a reason. Wow, a whole 107 likes! you must be proud! With a population of 10 mil-ish you are off to a great start! There are better posts talking about more pressing issues that had 100x the "likes" and nothing was done.

Let's be real here. There are likely less than 1 million active players. Closer to about 650k.

[Callinon]

With a population of 10 mil-ish you are off to a great start!

Wow yeah, not even close. You're off by orders of magnitude.

[polyphonica]

Even after explaining it to you, you still miss the point. It has nothing to do with convenience. It has to do with productivity. The difference with the app and not having the app is HUGE for career crafters, and all the career crafters that post here say the same thing, this app and P2W system is very problematic to their enjoyment, where that top 1% of 1% (very few people, as in 1 per server if that) will full out abuse it.

At this point, we don't even know if it will be possible to have multiple devices connected simultaneously on the same service account. (I assume probably not, since it'd be like account-sharing.) We also don't know if there will be any sort of caps or rate-limiting on market board access with MogCoins (such as a daily purchase limit, or daily spending cap). We also don't know just how fast the app UI and its interaction with the server is going to be in comparison to the in-game method. So there are a lot of details that aren't yet clear that will have a significant impact on the app's "productivity" benefit. And in the end, it's really easy to put sensible limits in place that would prevent someone from "abusing the market" with the app, without undermining the overall intention and functionality. So I think that dwelling on this edge case as the underlying concern isn't really effective. It would be more effective, as the poster you quoted did, just focusing on the fact that people don't like being nickle-and-dimed when they're already paying for the game and a subscription, because that's an overall sentiment that I think many agree with in general (whether or not this particular app crosses the line for them).

[MageBlack]

You stating this only shows your bias and skewed views. "Only battle content matters" I do not think so.

I seem to have missed where I said "only battle content matters"...

Name one thing that I can only get from spending gil on the market boards that would require me to amass huge quantities of gil? I'll wait...

The best answer (and its not even market boards) is a house, but that really is indifferent if there are not even enough plots open to buy one. (now there is a good topic to actually make a stink about)

I support your cause but you are only damaging it the way your conflate everything to such imaginary extremes, its unnecessary. You made your point the day it was announced and every day since its been a crusade. I hate to break it to you but you are not going to change the mind of those who can actually affect change, not like this. You are the preacher on a campus corner shouting doomsday proclamations at the top of your lungs. Again, I am with you on a few of the things you brought up but at this point its your tactics that are starting to piss people off and lose you credibility.

[Melichoir]

I think enabling someone to literally own the market board is more "power" then giving someone +10000 to your primary stat. One lets you solo savage... who cares? while the other leads to making people miserable.

You stating this only shows your bias and skewed views. "Only battle content matters" I do not think so.

Making people miserable isnt winning the game. People just think youre a butt. Am I winning the game if I go into a PF for Shinryu or Byakko EX clears and just troll? I mean, that does make people miserable. And btw, there are currently no players that can realistically 'own' the MB. Why? Because so long as someone does teh buy out method, they cannot own teh MB.

If I put a sword on teh MB for 10k, and you put one up for 9k (undercutting me), I can either adjust my price to UC you, or buy you out and repost at 10k to keep costs high. The trouble, however, is if I undercut you, Im not getting the price I want initially (though I am getting the sale). This also means that the other person can screw with me but putting the value so low that it either forces me to BO or UC. So if I post for 10k, and you post for 2k, If I want that 10k, I need to BO you, and repost at 12k if I want to keep that profit margin, or 10k if I want to maintain a market dominance. If I UC you, I lose out on around 8k of potential profit. Because the MB is built around the entire player base, keeping a strategic dominance on items that generally fall in value over time due to they becoming more frequent, Constant monitoring and BO/UC isnt a 100% hyper efficient system of making money. Not to mention, that the person who you BO makes a profit at your expense, and if you compete wtih them on price, it benefits the consumer market at large by driving down prices via competition. The APP doesnt provide you with a great advantage in that context, because youre gambling REAL cash against controlling a market where average john and jane and mess with your profit margins by UC at no cost. And make no mistake, it IS a gamble. Youre not guaranteed GIL.