Tank dps harrasment

[Derio]

How did the OP know they kicked because of dps. Tank dps at that. In almost every case 2 good dps can carry a dungeon run even if the tank and healer are doing little to no damage at all.

[KaldeaSahaline]

The point of debate for it in this thread is it's use in judging others, with people polarizing, arguing whether or not it's an appropriate tool to properly access and discriminate people. This is one thing being argued.

There is an ongoing debate as to what expectations are realistic. Some people are upset if players don't adopt a raider mentality to casual content, complaining that casual players need to "git gud" or be kicked.

To your first point. There is nothing wrong with screening people who are joining your parties for whatever content you want to do. If it wasn't via fflogs, it'd be by some other metric. Using it in MATCHED content is a bit silly though.

To your second point - you are misunderstanding. We want to see others get good for sure, but that's not what we're upset about. We're upset about the DPS with full TP who is simply doing 1-2-3 despite there being 7 mobs and doing 1k less DPS than the tank despite equal ilvl. We're upset that the Healer has 11% active uptime and 36 DPS over an entire 22 minute dungeon.

I could go on if you need me too, but the point I'm trying to convey is that it's not about skill. It's about effort. If you have no desire to contribute equal effort (please note: effort =/= skill) then you are being disrespectful.

It's not that black and white, there is plenty of middle ground.

Thankfully someone else gets it. See above.

Let's cut the BS. "Putting in effort" means doing YOUR job well enough to get things done. Don't try to foist this MLG-speak on people who don't give a toss about raids or raiders. This tank did her job and did it well, and some jacka$$ decides cut a promo on her for not being a tryhard. That garbage is why players have a negative attitude toward raiders, period.

No it doesn't. Doing the bare minimum is not putting in effort or doing your job well. In fact, it's quite literally the opposite.

I find that tank play is greatly taken for granted in this game. A tank who is holding agro is doing a good job, because when they hold agro it makes things easier for everyone else. DO NOT take that for playing optimally. That is not what I mean.

Don't take a tank holding aggro as doing a good job, it's doing the bare minimum.

I and others who play tank jobs as intended aren't quite as interested in our damage as in our ability to survive while doing what damage we can within our intended role. That doesn't come even close to warranting some jerk (who likely doesn't have DRK unlocked, much less touched Gladiator or Marauder) heaping abuse at a tank doing his/her job right. Have a seat, hotshot.

You mean you and others who intentionally do the bare minimum?

I survive every single tank buster in the game just fine in Sword Oath with HP to spare. Your ability to survive is scripted and completely inconsequential (especially moreso in low skill content) where a single healer shield/regen can last 50%+ the bosses HP.

The only person holding them back is them, even though it's other people wrongfully kicking them from parties. Okay, sure.

Are you even listening to yourself?

Why take responsibilities for your own performance guys, when you can shift the blame to someone else.

~Typical FF14 player.

Ah yes, the ol' thinly veiled "expecting more than the barest minimum is elitism" argument. By your silly logic, players should be able to go into dungeons and literally auto-attack mobs to death and no one should be allowed to say anything or remove them, because after all that's "enough to get things done".

Well I mean, if someone is regularly being removed from different, unrelated groups for the same reason every time it isn't hard to draw a simple and accurate conclusion that the person being kicked is indeed holding themselves back for refusal to fix what they know everyone else sees as a problem.

This guy gets it. See above, why take responsibility for the common denominator (OP), when you can blame someone else.

No. A RDM spamming Jolt is not acceptable. A PLD holding hate with only Flash is not acceptable. A healer never DPSing is not acceptable. It's lazy. You have an entire kit of abilities here and I can tell you that using the vast majority of them (sorry Repose and Fluid Aura) is the key to a swift and effective victory. A tank stance dancing is no different. While I would advocate for a less kick-happy mentality when dealing with someone playing their job poorly I don't see anything wrong with giving some advice and expecting to see them at least try. If that advice prompts a hostile response well then I'm not voting to kick a bad tank just an oversensitive jerk.

The point is that you have to try. Not even try hard (those are actually two separate words, not sure you knew - also a verb and an adjective, no nouns here) just try. I've coaxed many a baby tank through dropping stance on bosses and seen them outdps me thanks to this handy crystal ball a friend sometimes carries around. The OP could easily be another one if she's on Aether. Between CD rotation, immunities and a little help from a competent healer you don't have to be a "raider" to stance dance as a tank anymore.

Another person who gets it. A minutia of critical thinking really goes a long way...

I’ve always just thought I was being considerate staying in tank stance to not overburden the healers with my added 1k dps. Unfortunately, my fflogs show that in V3S, since I’m in the grey there.

Going forward though. I may just treat tank stance as an added CD, I just wish it wasn’t on the gcd with pld.

Don't treat it as an added CD. Your CD's are pretty fixed as to when you should use them to maximize their benefit. I too wish it wasn't on GCD or cost MP...

When I'm with PUG healers, I'm very cautious. That being said, I just came out of an Expert roulette as PLD with a WHM healer friend. in Ala Mhigo. Even managed to pull off the penta-pull (butt clenching moments aplenty, with a DRG/MCH DPS, might not have been the best idea but whatever), and I spent more time in Sword Oath than Shield Oath in bosses. I did 1 or 2 enmity combos, then Sword Oath and pushing out DPS. That's how I am, I'm cautious around people I haven't built that trust with, but once the trust is there, I'm going to go balls against the wall. So what would your tips be for overcoming the cautiousness around PUG healers (and their wildly varying skill levels)?

Don't be. Trial by fire. I've overpulled with shitty healers before and wiped the party. It was my fault just as much as everyone elses. The healer tried their best and couldn't do it. I apologized for overpulling and moved on. I didn't make excuses or call the healer shit. He knows it was part his fault that he couldn't do it. In some situations I've had to explain to WHM's how Holy works and why it's the best defensive cooldown in the game for dungeons.

People don't get as mad about wipes if you own it. In fact, I've done some stupid shit before and as long as you own it and don't make excuses people are generally pretty good about it.

I've had healers who say they had no idea they could handle X because they never tried and were glad I took them out of comfort zone.

As an 'elitist' as I've been called on many forums I'll NEVER be mad or upset with someone who tries and fails. But not trying? That's a shame.

It's the same reason I always advocate learning parties over clear parties. People who join learning parties WANT to learn. People who tend to join clear parties WANT to be carried to a clear.

I would say first off you're a PLD - you've got the best mitigation tool in the game in Hallowed. Know that you have that there as your "oh sh!t" button when you need it.

Hallowed is much better served as an actual cooldown and not an oh shit button.

I get bullied for dps stance

Preach. Despite being #1 overall DPS in Rabanastre AND holding threat on the boss in Sword Oath, a handful of people including the other tanks gave me shit about being in tank stance. I just Lol'd.

So for DRK and PLD...how should I be doing stance dancing? In dungeons as well as trials? Like, how can you be confident that you will not lose hate because of it? Because to be perfectly honest, now I'm afraid that what the OP experienced will happen to me.

Dungeons are easy. Big pulls -> use Shield Oath. With Shield Oath you do not need a ton of flashes for AOE aggro. You can use FoF -> Flash -> CoS -> spam TE. You shouldn't lose aggro. Try to rotate your auto's/swipes on different targets though.

For bosses, one enmity combo, and switch to sword. You may need more RoH's towards end. If the boss is like sub 5%, and a DPS rips threat, just cover them and keep DPSing and pray to god their not an idiot who thinks they can run away from the boss or that the boss does ANY kind of appreciable damage...

For Trials, make sure you coordinate with your co-tank. You will need voke/shirks if you want to sit in DPS stance full time. Make sure they have it before pull, and make sure you mention to DPS to have threat reducer skills.

It is more DPS to use RoH in Sword Oath, than it is to use RA in Shield Oath.

[HoodRat]

You are leaving yourself with more health than you would have had after a buster. If something would have taken 40k of your 52k and instead took 40k of your 70k you suddenly have a whole lot more wiggle room. Now you might live through a subsequent crit auto attack or a healer not being on the ball to get you back up right away.

I'm sorry but implying more health on a tank isn't useful is just not true. While the DPS contribution offered by Deliverance very often outweighs this advantage it is still undoubtedly an advantage when you're taking big hits.

The way I see it, defiance only works when you're at full hp or being healed...and even then it only increases healing spells and not healing abilities. While it does increase your max hp, it doesn't restore that hp. So, let's go back to your example and assume the war put on defiance during the cast of the 40k attack. While their max hp would be higher, unless they were healed or used equilibrium after putting defiance on but before taking the hit, they would still only be at 52k hp, whereas a pld or drk putting on tank stance midcast would have that 20% mitigation and only take 32k damage.

So for DRK and PLD...how should I be doing stance dancing? In dungeons as well as trials? Like, how can you be confident that you will not lose hate because of it? Because to be perfectly honest, now I'm afraid that what the OP experienced will happen to me.

Exactly what KaldeaSahaline says, for bosses do an enmity combo in tank stance then switch to dps stance. One thing I would like to add is that pld is the worst tank to pull with, so if you're on pld and have a second tank with you and they're not a pld, make them pull. :3

[Lewtskie]

Don't be. Trial by fire. I've overpulled with shitty healers before and wiped the party. It was my fault just as much as everyone elses. The healer tried their best and couldn't do it. I apologized for overpulling and moved on. I didn't make excuses or call the healer shit. He knows it was part his fault that he couldn't do it. In some situations I've had to explain to WHM's how Holy works and why it's the best defensive cooldown in the game for dungeons.

People don't get as mad about wipes if you own it. In fact, I've done some stupid shit before and as long as you own it and don't make excuses people are generally pretty good about it.

I've had healers who say they had no idea they could handle X because they never tried and were glad I took them out of comfort zone.

As an 'elitist' as I've been called on many forums I'll NEVER be mad or upset with someone who tries and fails. But not trying? That's a shame.

How about not trial by fire and instead actively gauge your healer's capabilities when in a pug. Caution coupled with critical thinking is the best option to not waste everyone's time and kill the mood. You brush it off with a "Haha, whoops" and I'm sitting here rolling my eyes as we have to re-commence, it's annoying. I would not give you crap about it but I'm still bothered none-the-less.

It's great that some healers showed appreciation for this, and I'm sure others you have or haven't ran with were/would be pretty cross about it. But some may still be getting their bearings, and trying to build up their ability as they go. Pushing them into the fire face first is not going to sit well with everyone, even those trying to improve themselves, and it could end up doing damage beyond the run.

You think on such extreme levels, I wouldn't call you elitist, just that there's more ways to deal with a situation that running to smash your face into a wall and dealing with the consequences afterwards.

[KrenianKandos]

In dungeons I go Sword Oath only on bosses, because on trash the tank can benefit from the mitigation of tank stance by pulling a lot. After one or two hate combos you can monitor enmity on the party list so no one can pull aggro without warning.



Trials however depend on the group. I've been to Shinryu ex practice parties where p1 autoattacks kill me as the OT in dps stance, after which I decided to go in tank stance just to see more mechanics and phases. Farm parties are probably more comfortable with everyone prioritizing dps. As a general rule it's good to be in tank stance for tank busters and adds.

...For FOUR years now I've tanked, and I had NO idea about this.

Wow. That is...something...

I wish they could make it so you can detach that from the Party menu and shove it in its own box similar to the dot threat one. Hell, merge both and make it that there's a name of a mob and then when you cycle, the name changes with the threat on said mob there.

Jebus...Thanks for the slap in the face. I always ignored the party bar when I'm tanking. I should start paying attention a tad more now...

[Hruodig]

Tanks are capable of putting out a non-insignificant amount of dps in this game. The fact is, once you're comfortable with the basics of tanking (holding aggro, positioning, becoming familiar with your cooldowns), pumping out dps is the next thing to focus on, and dropping your tank stance is the next step. It's something you just have to try, or else you'll never get comfortable with it.

[F_Maximillian]

You could also take the whippersnappers don't know what they're talking about and x role is capable of y and only y approach and consign yourself to stagnation. That's a popular approach as well.

[RiyahArp]

I'm not sure at all who would do this. Dungeons most people tank in shield unless at a boss; not many tank trash in dps stance. The hunt is ridiculous, it's not like you need to optimize that. Sounds like jerks on your server and data center.

As for FFlogs, well, never doubt the ability of gamers to suck all the fun out of their hobbies and turn them into real life jobs. If endgame is getting that annoying, people will start to shy away from it.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I’ve always just thought I was being considerate staying in tank stance to not overburden the healers with my added 1k dps. Unfortunately, my fflogs show that in V3S, since I’m in the grey there.

Going forward though. I may just treat tank stance as an added CD, I just wish it wasn’t on the gcd with pld.

Healing potency is absurdly high and incoming damage entirely predictable in this game. Take Critical Hit, which roughly hits the MT for 75,000. Using Dark Knight for example, you'll throw up Shadow Wall and TBN, which is 50%. Add the shield either a SCH/AST places on you and that buster does less than half your HP. A single Tetra or Essential almost covers it entirely, though HoT ticks are usually enough. Simply put, the extra 20% mitigation from your tank stance just isn't needed whereas the damage you would otherwise do is always a preferable boon. That all being said, don't treat tank stance as a CD. It's ideally something you only utilize for aggro generation, assuming no Shadewalker or proper Shirk-ing. For progression, yes, stay in tank stance since everyone's learning at that point. Once you have a comfortable grip on mechanics, there just isn't a need.

Dungeons are a bit different. Unlike boss encounters, if you pull the entire room, there will be massive amounts of incoming damage. Healers also have far superior AoE (Well, WHM and AST do). So staying in stance helps, though you can start to weave a little once some mobs die.

I suggest looking up Youtube videos or Twitch streams and seeing how aggressive other tanks play. That can really help given you an idea on how to practice that yourself.

[KaivaC]

I'm not quite as savvy in this forum as some of you are to create multiple quotes, so for everyone who has given me suggestions, thank you - I will begin to work on those immediately. Love my DRK, but starting from the near bottom to apply the knowledge here might help me with enjoying tanking again. Let's see how it goes.