Tank dps harrasment

[MoroMurasaki]

And yet the culmination of all of this back and forth is still the pro-tank DPS side of the 'debate' literally doing the thing that pages ago we largely argued did not occur - dismissing someone based purely on their fflogs.

I have argued for parsers, for healer DPS, for a general sense of responsibility that every member of every party should have about any content they run. People have called me an elitist, they've told me to 'get off my high horse' and 'casual players matter too!' literally since I joined this forum.

I have been accused of being the kind of person who would take someone's fflogs and use it to justify public disrespect despite never doing anything like that. I argued back that no one was really that low and that my 'opponents' were exagerating their claims for how scummy the playerbase could be about using these tools to enforce or support their standards.

Now I have to go and eat my words because I guess I'm wrong, this sort of bs does happen. Super disappointed right now, also kind of ashamed.

[Oscura]

And yet the culmination of all of this back and forth is still the pro-tank DPS side of the 'debate' literally doing the thing that pages ago we largely argued did not occur - dismissing someone based purely on their fflogs.

I have argued for parsers, for healer DPS, for a general sense of responsibility that every member of every party should have about any content they run. People have called me an elitist, they've told me to 'get off my high horse' and 'casual players matter too!' literally since I joined this forum.

I have been accused of being the kind of person who would take someone's fflogs and use it to justify public disrespect despite never doing anything like that. I argued back that no one was really that low and that my 'opponents' were exagerating their claims for how scummy the playerbase could be about using these tools to enforce or support their standards.

Now I have to go and eat my words because I guess I'm wrong, this sort of bs does happen. Super disappointed right now, also kind of ashamed.

I think mostly everyone can largely agree that randomly bringing up someone's FFLogs is uncalled for unless it was brought to attention prior (by the person themselves). Someone's opinion shouldn't be made lesser just because "oh I happened to look at your logs," especially when that person did not claim to be the best at their class and/or the game, or mention their logs at all. Even if FFlogs was somehow officially supported, I just feel like it's a weak and/or an argument that's a bit too personal, if not a bit underhanded. When comparing it to one's own logs, it just sounds like flat out bragging or attempts to undermine someone else. I have already said in this thread in the past that FFlogs is mostly just used as something to inflate egos, or more appropriately, a ****-measuring tool. So of course it happens, just like it happens with parsers. It just doesn't happen in volume.

I was mostly defending that while they were rude in their stance, Kaldea did not say the post was meaningless.

[akaneakki]

I was mostly defending that while they were rude in their stance, Kaldea did not say the post was meaningless.

While I agree some people do use FFLogs as e-peen status, (which I do with friends for fun) which is only between me and them and not the randoms we run with. I think while this person was blunt and mentioned someones log, I don't think the person didn't post it just to say ''hey look at me I'm better''.
There are serval reasons why someones log is bad; group comp, uptime as melee (which is a tanks job as well, to keep the boss to melee as much as possible) ilvl etc. While that been said, there is only so much you can output and do while having all of that, the real thing you need is skill. There are PLENTY of people here, that really talks like they KNOW how to play. I'm not going on a witch hunt on their logs, I don't need to because I already disagree with their statements and others to do. The worse part is many new players or current ones often think what they say is correct. I was in a roulette yesterday, where a healer used medica 2 when there was absoluttely no aoe. I would think, hey they did it to have an extra regen on tank, so they could dps. Did they? Nope. I didn't even ask them to, not my business if they wanted or felt comfy enough to do so. However, I asked politely why medica 2 was used and the group said, it's because it's good healing...While I agree it does give you good heals, it's bad to spam it when there is no aoe around. Just because you are a healer, doesn't mean your job is to spam heal. You have to controll your spells and output offensive spells too.

To make it short, some people here did mention their own logs, some doesn't, and those who don't, nobody should mention their logs, however if someone talks like they know how to play, someone will eventually look at their logs and compare to lets say their own, just to state what the other person is doing wrong or not. As much as it sounds like ''e-peen'', some people DO talk too much and can't even backup why it's good.

A
You did almost 1/3 the DPS of your co-tank in O1S today. I did almost 30% MORE DPS than you do now when I was ilvl 298 doing Lakshmi EX. I'd be curious what ilvl you are.
.

I was curious and had to look, but he died 1 time as well, so you have to count that too.

[Hyperia]

I wish they would just encrypt the data so FFLOGS would no longer work or any other parser for that matter. There being misused to the detriment of the community and need to go away. If the boss is dead, we are not and we got the encounter done, then that is all that matters. I could care less about your whatever parse...

[HyoMinPark]

I wish they would just encrypt the data so FFLOGS would no longer work or any other parser for that matter. There being misused to the detriment of the community and need to go away. If the boss is dead, we are not and we got the encounter done, then that is all that matters. I could care less about your whatever parse...

Literally the only people that use parsers to harass are the “tryhards”. Real Savage raiders don’t care about dungeon parses. A parser is an invaluable tool that I have used to help me personally grow, as well as help other groups, including my old static, progress through harder content by using the in-depth analysis that FFLogs provides. Don’t blame the tool just because a few twats decide to misuse it; it is incredibly invaluable to personal and group progression.

[Sylvina]

Literally the only people that use parsers to harass are the “tryhards”. Real Savage raiders don’t care about dungeon parses. A parser is an invaluable tool that I have used to help me personally grow, as well as help other groups, including my old static, progress through harder content by using the in-depth analysis that FFLogs provides. Don’t blame the tool just because a few twats decide to misuse it; it is incredibly invaluable to personal and group progression.

Yeah a parser is fine and even desired by many people as a personal improvement tool, but that's about the limit for how it should be used.

[Dualgunner]

I wish they would just encrypt the data so FFLOGS would no longer work or any other parser for that matter. There being misused to the detriment of the community and need to go away. If the boss is dead, we are not and we got the encounter done, then that is all that matters. I could care less about your whatever parse...

So you do care?

And I couldn't care less about your opinion that a tool should be disallowed because it's possible to misuse it.

[Miste]

I wish they would just encrypt the data so FFLOGS would no longer work or any other parser for that matter. There being misused to the detriment of the community and need to go away.

4 years of playing this game and all the toxic behavior I have seen in-game was nothing to do with parsers.

In my opinion if parser abuse was so commonplace where something needed to be done about it I feel I should have definitely seen some of it by now. I play way too darn much to have not seen anything by now if it was common.

Parsers are incredibly helpful for statics who wish to overall talk about improvement if it is needed to clear the content.

As for me personally I want to be able to see how I can improve and it is about me, not anyone else. I don't care about what others are doing I only care about my contribution and improving myself.

Why should we lose this tool over a possibly very very small % of people who abuse it? I mean would you ban all rulers from a high school just because one student used it to hit another student in the face? I doubt it...the kid would get reported and suspended and if it kept happening then eventually expelled. You get rid of the person abusing the tool, not the tool itself.

[Awha]

4 years of playing this game and all the toxic behavior I have seen in-game was nothing to do with parsers.

In my opinion if parser abuse was so commonplace where something needed to be done about it I feel I should have definitely seen some of it by now. I play way too darn much to have not seen anything by now if it was common.

Sad truth it is only common if you are bad, not much of a raider mostly play this game to craft, rp, and make fake monies. Though my friends that do 'try' to raid are horrible, I mean I cringe when they ask me to tank for them since I know it will be an ordeal. I cannot tell you how often I hear the whine in discord in or guild chat that people bash them for playing sub-par. Not defending or trying to excuse anything. Just saying that if it is not common for you or those around you does not mean it is any less of an issue for those players that are not up to the already fairly low bar.


Also if you guys see this you know I love you. :smirk:

[HyoMinPark]

Sad truth it is only common if you are bad, not much of a raider mostly play this game to craft, rp, and make fake monies. Though my friends that do 'try' to raid are horrible, I mean I cringe when they ask me to tank for them since I know it will be an ordeal. I cannot tell you how often I hear the whine in discord in or guild chat that people bash them for playing sub-par. Not defending or trying to excuse anything. Just saying that if it is not common for you or those around you does not mean it is any less of an issue for those players that are not up to the already fairly low bar.

While the experiences are all going to be anecdotal since no one has actually done any hard research that parsers increase toxic behavior, I have been in groups with some really subpar players (Ex primals and Savage; i.e., content where parsers and parsing actually matter), and I know there are more people than me parsing in there...yet no one ever says anything about them unless it’s something like a tank failing to hold hate, or a healer failing to heal, which are both things that you don’t need a parser to see. The most anyone says is after the bad player leaves, and it’s usually something like “Good riddance; they kept dying” or “Well, that works. They were only pulling 900~1,000 DPS as a BLM anyways”. Never have I seen people actively stand there and harass/berate a player to their face.

The “parser harassment” really does not occur as much as people like to claim it does, even to the “bad players”—the times it does occur, I feel like people blow them out of proportion, and start saying things like “I was harassed once in Expert Roulette over numbers, so parsers are bad and all they do is make people harass everyone all the time, and people that parse all need to be banned”.

I’ve seen once instance with a person saying something negative about an individual’s DPS numbers, and they weren’t doing so hot themselves. It happened in a Zurvan Ex bird farm (which, that fight already brought out the worst in everyone so), and a MCH was harassing a SMN about “missing 20 times” and “having crappy DPS”. And really, the only reason the individual’s numbers were bad was because they were lacking accuracy for the fight; other than that, their rotation was fine (according to my friend who was also there, and who was a SMN main). They certainly did more than a lot of other SMNs I had encountered in Heavensward (by this, I mean that they actually helped the healers raise dead players).

I’ve never seen people complain about numbers in dungeons. Closest I’ve seen is after a tank pulls a large pack, dies because the mobs aren’t dying fast enough, and after we respawn, they say something like “I’ll just do smaller pulls; not enough damage going out”—and again, that’s something you don’t even need a parser to see. It’s easy to tell when DPS aren’t AOEing packs down, not only from how long they’re taking to die, but from the fact that their TP is basically full the entire time. So, again, not really something you need a parser to see.