Tank dps harrasment

[Xerek]

This is spiraling off in multiple directions, and people are getting the different threads tangled together, making more of a mess of things.

I think the primary thing to look at is, there is two types of content in the game, casual and raid tier. There is a difference between them, and people advocating something for one of the two is not always advocating the same for both. Not everyone is being specific. For raid content, yes, optimize. People should be pushing to improve, and be held accountable for their performance. Raids are significantly harder then casual content, and worse, carry enrage timers. DPS matter, from all directions, regardless of role. This is one subject of debate, and primarily where the discussion of FFLogs comes in. There is a certain threshold everyone has to reach. Falling short puts a strain on the others, but at the same time the more you improve, the more strain you take off the others. FFLogs works wonders as a tool of self-improvement. The point of debate for it in this thread is it's use in judging others, with people polarizing, arguing whether or not it's an appropriate tool to properly access and discriminate people. This is one thing being argued.

The second is casual content. For many people expectations are lower for people in casual content given it is labelled, well, casual. And here is where the second point of contention comes in. There is an ongoing debate as to what expectations are realistic. Some people are upset if players don't adopt a raider mentality to casual content, complaining that casual players need to "git gud" or be kicked. The argument being these lesser being are slowing down their runs. This is where you heard stories of tanks in casual content being yelled at for staying in their tank stance the whole raid, and is the crux of the whole "healers should/n't DPS" train wreck going on. The opposing view is, this is casual content. Not everyone is a raider. Not everyone has the time or skill to hone their class to a razor's edge. As such, people should do what they're comfortable with and so long as they at least accomplish their primary role, it's all good. Maybe that means a tank stays in tank stance the whole way, or a healer doesn't DPS. It's casual content, people should approach it as such as stop putting such high pressure and demands on people in casual content.

One thread has spawned two different topics, each their own flashpoint. When responding, and equally importantly when reading responses, please keep this is mind and be sure you know and are clear if a particular reply is directed to just one, or both of them. Arguing that a tank that stays in tank stance the entire fight is slacking and should be kicked takes on two different contexts depending on whether it was referencing casual or raid content. And I, personally, have two vastly different opinions to it reliant on context.

For the record, I think FFLogs is a great tool for self-improvement. As for excluding people, I still maintain that a quick glance might not paint a perfect picture, going simply by color likely doesn't. But it can be helpful if you take the time to really dig in and/or watch. However, if you have time to do that, why not just bring the person along for a test run? It would take the same amount of time and give you not only a direct look at them, also a look at how they perform specifically with your people. So I will completely endorse it for self-improvement, but I'm not completely sold on it being an arbiter for others.

As for point two. Casual content is casual. If you PUG, you aren't always going to pull raiders. Some of them will be casual. Perhaps they're not that good, perhaps they don't have the mindset to perfectly execute their combos, or the mental tenacity to squeeze out every second of efficiency. Maybe they're older, and arthritic. Maybe they're slow learners. Maybe they're novices. Maybe they need to stay in tank stance to hold aggro, maybe they can't think/react fast enough to weave DPS into their heals. They're casual players in casual content. Get over it. You want your fifteen minute runs, form a static. Queue as a full party with fellow raiders. And if the run hits any hiccups you can yell at each other. But your attitude that casuals somehow have to become raid-tier players in casual content or they're wasting your time is arrogant and unrealistic. FF XIV has content for casual players and raiders. There is a place for both. If you won't tolerate the mindset of a casual in your raiding, casual players shouldn't have to tolerate your raider mindset in casual play.

[HoodRat]

casual vs raid tier

It's not that black and white, there is plenty of middle ground. Let me refer you back to my earlier comment of

Except it's not about having "Savage skill level," it's about actually putting in effort. I'll never understand why people think actually trying means they have to be top 10%.

[Hayward]

It's not that black and white, there is plenty of middle ground. Let me refer you back to my earlier comment of

Let's cut the BS. "Putting in effort" means doing YOUR job well enough to get things done. Don't try to foist this MLG-speak on people who don't give a toss about raids or raiders. This tank did her job and did it well, and some jacka$$ decides cut a promo on her for not being a tryhard. That garbage is why players have a negative attitude toward raiders, period.

[HoodRat]

Let's cut the BS. "Putting in effort" means doing YOUR job well enough to get things done. Don't try to foist this MLG-speak on people who don't give a toss about raids or raiders. This tank did her job and did it well, and some jacka$$ decides cut a promo on her for not being a tryhard. That garbage is why players have a negative attitude toward raiders, period.

Remind me not to play tic-tac-toe with you.

[Xerek]

Remind me not to play tic-tac-toe with you.

Yes, because FF XIV is a turn-based game no more complex then tic-tac-toe. Going to compare it to pong next? :eyeroll:

[Hayward]

Remind me not to play tic-tac-toe with you.

That meme doesn't fly with me or any other person who isn't a wannabe MLG'er. I and others who play tank jobs as intended aren't quite as interested in our damage as in our ability to survive while doing what damage we can within our intended role. That doesn't come even close to warranting some jerk (who likely doesn't have DRK unlocked, much less touched Gladiator or Marauder) heaping abuse at a tank doing his/her job right. Have a seat, hotshot.

[Miste]

Let's cut the BS. "Putting in effort" means doing YOUR job well enough to get things done. Don't try to foist this MLG-speak on people who don't give a toss about raids or raiders. This tank did her job and did it well, and some jacka$$ decides cut a promo on her for not being a tryhard. That garbage is why players have a negative attitude toward raiders, period.

Simply dropping tank stance on bosses in Expert Roulette is not "try hard". It is actually not that much different than just using tank stance and it is quite easy to get used to in my opinion.

You just open in tank stance, obtain solid hate, then switch to DPS stance and cycle your cooldowns to avoid taking too much damage. If you notice DPS are creeping on you then you make proper judgement on using more hate combo or if you need to go back into tank stance or not; also if the healer is new or seems to be struggling for any reason it is fine to stay in tank stance. The bosses generally don't do enough damage to need tank stance.

I mean if you can do your main role of tanking also while DPSing for more why wouldn't you do it? It's beneficial for everyone. I am not saying it is okay to harass a tank not doing it or kick them, because I think that is way overboard and not necessary in a dungeon, but I see nothing wrong with advocating more beneficial play styles and putting in the effort to try new ways of playing that would be beneficial for everyone.

[Xerek]

Simply dropping tank stance on bosses in Expert Roulette is not "try hard". It is actually not that much different than just using tank stance and it is quite easy to get used to in my opinion.

You just open in tank stance, obtain solid hate, then switch to DPS stance and cycle your cooldowns to avoid taking too much damage. If you notice DPS are creeping on you then you make proper judgement on using more hate combo or if you need to go back into tank stance or not; also if the healer is new or seems to be struggling for any reason it is fine to stay in tank stance. The bosses generally don't do enough damage to need tank stance.

I mean if you can do your main role of tanking also while DPSing for more why wouldn't you do it? It's beneficial for everyone. I am not saying it is okay to harass a tank not doing it or kick them, because I think that is way overboard and not necessary in a dungeon, but I see nothing wrong with advocating more beneficial play styles and putting in the effort to try new ways of playing that would be beneficial for everyone.

The discussion here isn't whether or not you should do it casual content, it's whether people should catch grief for not doing so.

I'm an AST that DPSs like mad in dungeons. But that's because I can. Despite that, if I'm running it as tank or dps and I pull a healer that only DPSs a little or not at all, I'm not going to attack them for it. It's casual content. Same applies to tanks in casual content that stays in tank stance, or only does smaller pulls when I tell them I can heal through large pulls.

[Miste]

The discussion here isn't whether or not you should do it casual content, it's whether people should catch grief for not doing so.

I think you missed part of what I wrote? I already said in that post that I don't agree with harassing or kicking a tank over not doing it in dungeons. I was specifically replying to him because he said it was "try hard" to utilize your DPS stance on a tank.

I want to hear from end game healers on dropping tank stance. Does it put extra stress on you in DF or PF? Do you expect the tank to dps stance and are prepared for it healing wise with zero communication? Would you rather the tank stay in tank stance?

I’ve only dabbled in shinex and that damage is real.

End game healers are generally used to it. If you do savage it is almost a natural state to heal tanks in DPS stances. You learn to adjust and learn what you need to do to make sure they get the healing they need, but it is also the tank's responsibility to make sure they use their cooldowns properly as well since healers also need to find time to DPS to help the group as well.

[Shurrikhan]

Let's cut the BS. "Putting in effort" means doing YOUR job well enough to get things done. Don't try to foist this MLG-speak on people who don't give a toss about raids or raiders. This tank did her job and did it well, and some jacka$$ decides cut a promo on her for not being a tryhard. That garbage is why players have a negative attitude toward raiders, period.

All players have the same job -- to make whatever their doing as quick as possible. That's why you take a healer or tank in the first place. Among three other basically equally skilled players can make a bigger difference to clear time on your healer job than on your tank or DPS, then you are better able to perform your job on your healer than on your tank or dps. It's really quite simple.

Now, some jobs -- like tanks or healer, free up a whole lot more time with even minimal effort than, say, a DPS. But that doesn't mean that you have nothing more to contribute. If they were in your shoes, could they go faster. If yes, and you're not playing to the fullest, then you're still doing less than they are. We're not as likely to care if a healer or tank aren't maximizing their potential because they're already drastically more efficient choices (relative to doing a no-tank or no-healer run), but that doesn't mean they cannot or should not be asked to play to their fullest (as a character with x gear and y job and a player with x experience and y level of comfort). That's their job. To perform. The role is just a division of smaller responsibilities therein. The goal is always content completion, and the only spectrum there is clear speed.