Tank dps harrasment

[MoroMurasaki]

When I'm with PUG healers, I'm very cautious. That being said, I just came out of an Expert roulette as PLD with a WHM healer friend. in Ala Mhigo. Even managed to pull off the penta-pull (butt clenching moments aplenty, with a DRG/MCH DPS, might not have been the best idea but whatever), and I spent more time in Sword Oath than Shield Oath in bosses. I did 1 or 2 enmity combos, then Sword Oath and pushing out DPS. That's how I am, I'm cautious around people I haven't built that trust with, but once the trust is there, I'm going to go balls against the wall. So what would your tips be for overcoming the cautiousness around PUG healers (and their wildly varying skill levels)?

I would say first off you're a PLD - you've got the best mitigation tool in the game in Hallowed. Know that you have that there as your "oh sh!t" button when you need it.


Xerek has already said communication and I think that's probably the best answer. In an ideal world every healer knows their limits and how to convey them. Sadly in the world of DF I feel there are a lot of players who just will not communicate whether that stems from being console players without keyboards or something else entirely.

If you ask a healer how they feel about a large pull and they say anything other than "please no" I say go for it. I've now pugged the Ala Mhigo megapull with each tank several times as it is becoming more common in DF and I can say it's certainly possible. I do think for something like that you should spend more time in tank stance, that way if it goes well enough your healer can AoE a bit which is difinitively stronger than CoS pretty much across the board.

I also endorse Xerek's ideas on wiping - there really isn't much of a penalty for it, plus you've learned a bit if it happens.

I don't mean to presume anything about your current skill level but as most of my post focused on stance dancing I'll reiterate that even in preformed parties I only have one tank friend that consistantly does those gigantic pulls primarily in DPS stance and he is both very geared and very skilled, not to mention usually backed by wonderful DPS players.

I think tank DPS shines in single-target situations, if you're going to begin DPS stance I would say do it on bosses. Ala Mhigo is an amazing example of bosses that require almost zero tank stance outside of gaining some threat. Zenos has that cleave tankbuster move but even that isn't coming close to oneshotting most tanks, heck I've survived it on WHM.

I don't think you're ever going to feel as comfortable stance dancing with a pug healer as you would with a friend, if I had advice for that I would give it but I don't think it exists. I do think that the more you get " in the groove" of stance dancing (just like healers did before SB) the more comfortable you'll become with it in general (again like pre-SB healers) and whether that practice comes from pugs or premades doesn't matter as much as having the experience.

It's not that i dont agree with you, i would die from boredom without dps'ing as an healer, and the ABC Rule should be followed if possible but :

Just to make one thing clear. Thats just not true. Content IS designed without Healer DPS in mind.




Want a source?

This quote is two and a half years old though. He's also said personal and FC housing would be separate, housing reclamation would never be a thing, enacted "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" with parsers... Not everything Yoshi says stays law forever.

I would be startled if Ultimate had no healer DPS factored into its timing. I know it's an extreme example but it's no less valid.

[millktea]

"shield oath? you're a paladin. you do no damage"

"you died because no defiance. your cds do nothing, you get 20% mitigation"

"we have a warrior that does bad damage" (based on an overhealing white mage that doesn't know how to lucid properly)

as a tank, you're always going to be wrong.

[millktea]

I expect a tank to never use tank stance, unless it's progression and necessary. I expect pld/drk to only use it for tankbusters (and a last resort).

[Kaethra]

Here's what it boils down to. People group with whom they wish. Its really that simple.

You cannot be booted from a Trial unless 4 people out of the other 7 decide you must go. If its because they think you're in tank stance too often, then that's their will. If they don't like your glamor, hairstyle, character's eye color.. those are all valid (if strange) reasons. You can call it abuse all you want. But in reality where is that going to get you? You think a GM is going to place you back in the group, shake their finger at the 'abusers' and say 'play nice now...'.

You think they are going to take revenge in your honor on them and suspend the people? Sure.. they MIGHT look into it, but failing harassment in group chat, they'll likely take no action. Telling you to use an ability isn't harassment, its strategy, and if you're not conforming to the rest of the group, YOU are being disruptive and can be actioned. Duty Finder is a dictatorship of the majority. All it takes is four against one, even if the other 3 agree with you, you're on your way out.

I personally don't care what stance a tank is in as long as they don't kill themselves and don't get anyone else killed. I expect the DPS to do the DPS that is required of the encounter. That's my opinion. But that is ONLY an opinion. If I'm in a group and they decide they want the tank to pull so however much DPS, then sucks to be that tank I guess. Nothing I can do about it. I can click no on the vote kick, but what will that do? Tank is still being booted at the end of the day in that scenario.

Like I said, if the majority of a group wants you to bunny hop, you're going to be hopping or looking for another group. Premades is the only way to avoid that nonsense.

[BorisDaBlade]

I’ve always just thought I was being considerate staying in tank stance to not overburden the healers with my added 1k dps. Unfortunately, my fflogs show that in V3S, since I’m in the grey there.

Going forward though. I may just treat tank stance as an added CD, I just wish it wasn’t on the gcd with pld.

[MoroMurasaki]

I’ve always just thought I was being considerate staying in tank stance to not overburden the healers with my added 1k dps. Unfortunately, my fflogs show that in V3S, since I’m in the grey there.

Going forward though. I may just treat tank stance as an added CD, I just wish it wasn’t on the gcd with pld.

I think alot of tanks think this way. I'm not saying never enter tank stance, especially if you're pulling big in a dungeon or about to take a tankbuster, but yeah... It's certainly not necessary for most of us.

We like your dps just as much as our own in general.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

I’ve always just thought I was being considerate staying in tank stance to not overburden the healers with my added 1k dps. Unfortunately, my fflogs show that in V3S, since I’m in the grey there.

Going forward though. I may just treat tank stance as an added CD, I just wish it wasn’t on the gcd with pld.

Healing potency is absurdly high and incoming damage entirely predictable in this game. Take Critical Hit, which roughly hits the MT for 75,000. Using Dark Knight for example, you'll throw up Shadow Wall and TBN, which is 50%. Add the shield either a SCH/AST places on you and that buster does less than half your HP. A single Tetra or Essential almost covers it entirely, though HoT ticks are usually enough. Simply put, the extra 20% mitigation from your tank stance just isn't needed whereas the damage you would otherwise do is always a preferable boon. That all being said, don't treat tank stance as a CD. It's ideally something you only utilize for aggro generation, assuming no Shadewalker or proper Shirk-ing. For progression, yes, stay in tank stance since everyone's learning at that point. Once you have a comfortable grip on mechanics, there just isn't a need.

Dungeons are a bit different. Unlike boss encounters, if you pull the entire room, there will be massive amounts of incoming damage. Healers also have far superior AoE (Well, WHM and AST do). So staying in stance helps, though you can start to weave a little once some mobs die.

I suggest looking up Youtube videos or Twitch streams and seeing how aggressive other tanks play. That can really help given you an idea on how to practice that yourself.

[millktea]

so you're intentionally doing less damage out of fear?

I get the opposite: I get bullied for dps stance

[Tint]

so you're intentionally doing less damage out of fear?

no, that's not the intention. the intention is to have more defense out of fear. doing less damage is just a side effect.

[millktea]

same thing.

not only that, that only really works for the knights and yet, people still don't know how defiance works (and only spells work... skilled healers will use abilities/cooldowns more, which makes it nearly ineffective).