Built-in Parsers

[Ilan]

Very real situation. Recently recruiting for replacement tank in my static. One guy I talked to vehemently expressed his disgust with the attitude of PF groups. Doing my due diligence to check his logs, I literally find he has the worst of the worst. Come to find out he plays on ps4, he had no idea that his damage was so low. I wanted to give him a shot because he seemed very interested in learning how to be better. After working with him one night, we increased his dps by almost 1000. He still needs a bit more improvement, but how would he have ever known how "bad" he was. What PF is gonna take the time to work with him to get better? None. While I can't say for certain, I'd be willing to bet a lot the cancer he ran in to in PF got a hell of lot worse when they saw his numbers lol

For reasons like this I'd support a personal in-game parser. It doesn't have show other people's dps, only your own. There's really no other way to get better in this game then by comparing damage. Half the "hardcore" raiding community would be shite without 3rd party plugins calling out mechanics for them, without being able to see their damage numbers compared to everyone else, without fflogs breaking down every single aspect of the fight for them. So let PS4 players be able to see their own damage, it's not asking a lot.

Its a good example why a parser is not a bad thing, but you'll still have these people who will cry that parsers are the mos evil thing in the world.

[Kacho_Nacho]

My bar? It's not going to be the same as everyone else. You'll see people with differing opinions. But sure, my bar is someone claiming to know and cleared the fight cranking out substantially less than they should be for what they're playing with. I also consider if they were lower due to clutch plays such as hard casting a res. I won't fault someone for trying to make the run a success. If they're new to the fight I expect them to suck it up and am more forgiving, especially if they're a guildmate trying to break into the game.

Thank you for going into detail.

It's a good example why a parser is not a bad thing, but you'll still have these people who will cry that parsers are the most evil thing in the world.

There is no need to descend into hyperbole just because I and others are against having parsers in the game. The example Whiskybravo gave was of the proper use of parser.

The issue is a number of people feel parsers will be improperly used by a significant number of FFXIV subscribers who will only look at the dps numbers and nothing else.

Furthermore, it is believed this trend of looking at only the "magic dps number" will extend well beyond cutting edge content down to even the beginning dungeons.

These beliefs did not come from thin air. All of us have had experience with games which allowed parsers.

[Mepplin]

For reasons like this I'd support a personal in-game parser. It doesn't have show other people's dps, only your own. There's really no other way to get better in this game then by comparing damage. Half the "hardcore" raiding community would be shite without 3rd party plugins calling out mechanics for them, without being able to see their damage numbers compared to everyone else, without fflogs breaking down every single aspect of the fight for them. So let PS4 players be able to see their own damage, it's not asking a lot.

Wait... What?! There are third party programs which tell you about upcoming mechanics? o.o
Probably explains a lot! (Like simultanous mechanics happening more and more. Way easier to do your job if you dont need to think about mechanics...)

I guess getting a better grasp on ones own dps is the most significant point.
Why not force everyone to be successful at that certain dummy before joining via tool? Or better: add some option for PF to filter people who have not archieved a dummy-down at that fight.
The last idea would be to give a better idea of how good/bad one is. Just like grades. S for the best, A for good, B for medium. (or something else. Just copied it from hunts)
And have people not being able to eat stuff or use buffing potions. Because that feels to me like cheating. (If one isnt able to beat that dummy unbuffed but barely makes it buffed.) One should be able to beat dummies without food/pots.

Actually that is already happening since those hard dps-checks started. (Heavensward?)
Or what do you think of people wanting to force their tanks and healers to minimize their maintasks in favor of damage? I think it's exactly the same thing. And this is something I'm completely against at. I really prefer that "oldschool" role-system over dps>all. But less and less people seem to care about that.
Nice for people who calculate all of this and show the difference between two parties - one playing more safe, the other "a bit" more reckless. With that more reckless party being faster 2 mins resulting in that being a "pro dps>all"-point.
But one thing is being forgotten. Not everyone is able to hit those 95%+ parses. There are even parties whose members tend to do more mistakes than others; resulting in slower progression. And that should be fine. You cant just throw people out of some content just because of... wait. What exactly? I cant think about a reason for that...

I've seen threads where raiders (or players who are full of themselfes for whatever else reason?) told about their kicks of very bad people who dont care about gear. (ever been new to mmos? did you grasp everything from the first 1-2 months? me not. I started thinking about stats way after I had my first raiding experiences.) Sometimes they even told about having seen their very bad gear (ok - some mid hw-weapon with 63 is REALLY old; but one could be friendly or tell a joke about it instead of insulting them) and how they then started to pull more to force the healer out. Without being the tank. Think about that. DPS pulling another two sets of enemies just to have the healer leave or convincing the tank to kick that healer... And yes. This has been told to have happened in eighter leveling dungeons and daily queues. Far away from any extreme or raidcontent. But the worst point? Those people seemed to be proud about it.
Well I can understand their frustration at some points. I'm not very happy with 80 minute daily queues as well. Or if people are really underperforming (like doing 1/3 of the "usual") or not even trying to understand mechanics which causes them to die. But I dont see it as a reason to insult/harass those people. Why not ask friendly if those knew about their fault(s)? Or if one isnt in the mood to talk to them, why not stay quiet?

I'm sorry. But this game (or its community) is already at that point.
There shouldnt be any further thread coming from built in parsers. Yes the toxic behaviour will (probably) increase. But at least people would get a tool to try and get better on their own.
I dont think they would be needed on every content. Dummies should have them. Maybe even as a PF-Option if that will be shown or not. Making it PF only.

Those common "bigpulls" (door to door) are part of it as well. Some people get nervous easily if they arent sure about their tanking capability and then get dps or healers which eighter seem to want one to go faster or who actually go and pull stuff. The same from the healer. It's not nice to do bigpulls with every healers. There could be some who are new to this. Though I've seen tanks asking their healer if its okay to do bigpulls. Or the healer telling the tank that more is okay if he wants to.

[akaneakki]

For those who don't want parser. I can understand (from your point of view) that you are afraid getting harrased.
Let me ask you this, you go in a group you find out you got enrage because you are 20% dps lower than the second or even third dps. What is your view on this? Keep going tillit's dead even tho you know it's a dead end? Then my second question is, you end up finding out the dps in your group is 20% lower than you on dps and you get enrage, what would you do? Then the last one is, if a group has amazing dps and can cover for yours, do you feel its okay for them to do it for you, them pulling the gameplay by 85% or more? Or is it unfair for them? Now, imagine they played at your level, would that be fun for you? Or selfish behalf of the 7 others?

[SDaemon]

snip

Depends. Is that 20% lower still within the required DPS to clear? If so then the issue clearly isn't with the party's DPS and they are failing mechanics. However, a group will likely just kick that 20% less DPS in favor of trying to push out more DPS in hopes of winning. As players are able to push out greater numbers they will gradually expect the overall community to do the same regardless whether or not the content requires it.

If that 20% less DPS puts them below the threshold of what each DPS needs to do in order to clear the encounter then yes, that person should be replaced or guided in a way to help them improve.

If in a group someone is doing amazing DPS and they are below then it again depends. Are they doing well? Are their numbers enough that in the scope of the fight they are doing their fair share or more? Just because someone is doing 5k+ DPS and they are only doing 3k+ DPS doesn't mean they should be shamed or made felt like they are being carried, not if the fight only requires a personal DPS of ~2k. (The numbers are figurative, the situation is my driving point.)

[Baingoleth]

Very real situation. Recently recruiting for replacement tank in my static. One guy I talked to vehemently expressed his disgust with the attitude of PF groups. Doing my due diligence to check his logs, I literally find he has the worst of the worst. Come to find out he plays on ps4, he had no idea that his damage was so low. I wanted to give him a shot because he seemed very interested in learning how to be better. After working with him one night, we increased his dps by almost 1000. He still needs a bit more improvement, but how would he have ever known how "bad" he was. What PF is gonna take the time to work with him to get better? None. While I can't say for certain, I'd be willing to bet a lot the cancer he ran in to in PF got a hell of lot worse when they saw his numbers lol

For reasons like this I'd support a personal in-game parser. It doesn't have show other people's dps, only your own. There's really no other way to get better in this game then by comparing damage. Half the "hardcore" raiding community would be shite without 3rd party plugins calling out mechanics for them, without being able to see their damage numbers compared to everyone else, without fflogs breaking down every single aspect of the fight for them. So let PS4 players be able to see their own damage, it's not asking a lot.

I <3 this reply. While I don't think stubborn people who knowingly join parties out of their league should get carried, they are probably the minority of the low DPS players who get slandered. I stated in a previous reply how much better it would be if people would take the time to identify why a party member is under-performing and let them know. Nicely. You don't have to keep these players in your party but at least dismiss them with friendly advice.

whiskeybravo, your post reminds me of a strong player I used to know. He spent a lot of time forming parties with people who were new to the end game with the express purpose of teaching them how to improve. His mentality was that if more players had someone to help get them up to speed, more parties would be raiding successfully and it would be easier to find good groups.

Some of the pro-parser people I have seen in this thread really do sound mean and cut-throat. Does taking a bit of time to thank an underperforming player for trying and typing a few pointers out before kicking them from your hardcore party really cut into your gaming time so much? If you do it right, that player might learn something and you might gain a valuable party member for later runs.

[Taika]

Does taking a bit of time to thank an underperforming player for trying and typing a few pointers out before kicking them from your hardcore party really cut into your gaming time so much? If you do it right, that player might learn something and you might gain a valuable party member for later runs.

I've never been in a "hardcore raid party" and I'm all for offering people advice (and in a friendly manner). However, without an official parser we cannot even tell anyone why they need to be removed from the party. In fact, some people in these threads have even said that if anyone is even hinting about someone maybe having used a parser (by saying for example "seems like you need to study your rotation a bit more before you can clear this fight"), they will get immediately reported and risk getting banned. Similarly, if that underperforming person would be able to use a parser, they would already know they'd be doing less than they should, and could leave the group by themself to get more practice before joining another group, instead of having to be told (or, in current situation, not told anything at all) and removed by others.

[Wolf_Heartnet]

I agree Kikix. Parsers are necessary and this game needs it desperately.

[Baingoleth]

I've never been in a "hardcore raid party" and I'm all for offering people advice (and in a friendly manner). However, without an official parser we cannot even tell anyone why they need to be removed from the party. In fact, some people in these threads have even said that if anyone is even hinting about someone maybe having used a parser (by saying for example "seems like you need to study your rotation a bit more before you can clear this fight"), they will get immediately reported and risk getting banned. Similarly, if that underperforming person would be able to use a parser, they would already know they'd be doing less than they should, and could leave the group by themself to get more practice before joining another group, instead of having to be told (or, in current situation, not told anything at all) and removed by others.

All of my previous replies encourage parsers.

I wasn't thinking about you when I posted that. You seem reasonable.

[Ilan]

Wait... What?! There are third party programs which tell you about upcoming mechanics? o.o
Probably explains a lot! (Like simultanous mechanics happening more and more. Way easier to do your job if you dont need to think about mechanics...)

snip

ACT can do that.