Built-in Parsers

[Zafire063]

I get not wanting to use a parser. But I don't think there has been a sensible reason stated for why they shouldn't be allowed as an optional feature. Why deny them from those who want to use them in their premade groups consisting of people who have joined knowing the runs will be parsed?


I really don't get how it would be in any way better to have someone simply flagged as awful instead of having the objective numerical context to measure all group members' performance.

How many MMO's have you played? I've only played four, and two of them had easy-to-obtain parsers. "Do this much DPS or we're kicking you" "You're doing 3% less than what you should be, we're kicking you" etcetc. It happens A LOT in those games. The reason why is because there is a numerical value. Parser's are definitely a great tool, but certain people don't deserve to have a tool like that.

[Taika]

How many MMO's have you played? I've only played four, and two of them had easy-to-obtain parsers. "Do this much DPS or we're kicking you" "You're doing 3% less than what you should be, we're kicking you" etcetc. It happens A LOT in those games. The reason why is because there is a numerical value. Parser's are definitely a great tool, but certain people don't deserve to have a tool like that.

I've played mainly this one (endgame focused), but this one's been heavily parsed for the whole time, and all my groups have been parsed (both statics and pugs). I have not witnessed the behaviour you're describing. Earlier in this thread I checked there are well over 110 000 individual parses published for OS1 - that should tell you something about how commonly all party finder content is already parsed this moment. There's no reason to assume having an official parser would change the behaviour of the people who are already parsing this content. And, once again, treating people badly would still not be any more allowed than it is now.

Edit: To add, I think parties are and should be allowed to set their own entry requirements (talking about PF content here, not random groups). If the party leader wants to set "5k DPS or kick" or "1 mistake and kick" groups, they're very much allowed to do so. I won't join those parties, and everyone else has that exact same right, official parser or not (and as you know there already are groups like that, even without an official parser). People who wish to play more casually and set more reasonable expectations are free to do just that as well. And even if an official parser would be added, it should be an optional feature, available for those parties that wish to use it and not forced on those who don't.

[HyoMinPark]

How many MMO's have you played? I've only played four, and two of them had easy-to-obtain parsers. "Do this much DPS or we're kicking you" "You're doing 3% less than what you should be, we're kicking you" etcetc. It happens A LOT in those games. The reason why is because there is a numerical value. Parser's are definitely a great tool, but certain people don't deserve to have a tool like that.

This is all anecdotal; not quantitative evidence. And whether or not it occurs in other games does not necessarily mean that it will or will not occur in this game if a built-in parser were to be implemented in high-end content where parser use actually matters (there's very little reason to have parsers in dungeons or even 24-mans because the content is relatively easy, and usually does not have the same types of DPS checks or rDPS requirements that Savage or Ex content does). If these were restrictions set in place in a PF group by the PF leader, they have the right to set whatever restrictions they want in their party. That's why PF has all those fancy options when you create one. In DF, any clear cut cases of harassment will be properly dealt with if reported. That isn't going to change just because a parser is a publicly condoned/built-in feature.

You're right in saying that some people do not need such a tool at their disposal, because they are only going to use it negatively and paint those that use the tool for "good" in that same negative light; people usually tend to pay more attention to the bad, and use it to generalize concepts as a whole. One person was a jerk and used a parser to do it? Now suddenly everyone who parses is also a jerk--because one guy was. But you blame that person for being a jerk; you don't blame the tool, nor do you generalize others who use said tool. It's not the parser's fault someone was being a twat. They would probably be a twat without a parser anyways. Because that's sadly how people are. But again, you blame the person, not the tool. (Note that I use the general "you" in the latter portion of this paragraph; it's not meant to imply you, specifically.)

[akaneakki]

How many MMO's have you played?

Fights in many MMO has a DPS check while handling mechics. You either have
A: A DPS who fail mechanics or B; A dps whol fail to do enough damage or worse one failing both. If a person is doing 3% less than the rest which is doable in many fights in the mmo's ive played, they never got kicked. Honestly we talking drastic 20-30% less than people, hell some people do less than tanks.
I like how someone said they played FFXI and had a lot of toxic people with parsers, yet I was on ps2 and did the hardest fights in the game. I played BnS and Gw2 as well, no toxic people with parsers there that I have witness. Honestly 3% is easily doable in many fights and you have to kinda prove yourself there people get kicked for lets say doing 200-300 dps less than the other dps in most farm groups or statics. This shit happens a lot and nobody is getting kicked. If a person is doing 700-1k less than the third dps or second, they are bad.

[Xlantaa]

The only way to reduce to minimum the parse impact is making the abuse (abuse in ANY possible way, that includes kick or discrimination on a player for underperfoming) punishable:

Any party which kick form a duty (ANY DUTY) because numbers are not good for them (ANY number, under-performing or not).
Any party who deliberately discriminate in PF, prohibiting player form join if not enough DPS for them, even if that player can complete the duty.
Any person who mock or harass a player because his numbers.
Any player who upload the data to a third party site (FFLogs type), specially if not have the party member consent.

This is the only way to make the parser safe. But most of you will argue with the "why I can't kick the under-performing player?". If you think this, you DON'T WANT a parse to see statistics and help improve, you want it to exclude people.

A parser without limits will work only in the Happy Rainbow Land where everyone is a good person and is full of Ponnies and Moogles. But we know that is not the case, so it is necessary a lot of restrictions.

It is very hard to accomplish without cause a heavy gap on the community.Isolating players with no enough skill from others (that already happen, but this will cause a even bigger gap).

The majority of player base consider good being able to beat a duty, not the damage deal on them. Most people come to play and not worry much about things. Making a tool that can be potentially used to cause a negative atmosphere will cause that player stop play this game. Since majority are ignoring the parsing, the amount of player that can be lost due this will cause a heavy lost in money for SE. it is not only morality and education, it also also economic. Those player you mock, harass, kick because number are paying this game too. If they stop play, you know what will happen. A player who cannot play or is discriminate will stop play. They won't think "oh, maybe I can improve my DPS and I won't be kicked!", most of them they just stop play.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

The only way to reduce to minimum the parse impact is making the abuse (abuse in ANY possible way, that includes kick or discrimination on a player for underperfoming) punishable:

Any party which kick form a duty (ANY DUTY) because numbers are not good for them (ANY number, under-performing or not).
Any party who deliberately discriminate in PF, prohibiting player form join if not enough DPS for them, even if that player can complete the duty.
Any person who mock or harass a player because his numbers.
Any player who upload the data to a third party site (FFLogs type), specially if not have the party member consent.

This is the only way to make the parser safe. But most of you will argue with the "why I can't kick the under-performing player?". If you think this, you DON'T WANT a parse to see statistics and help improve, you want it to exclude people.

A parser without limits only will work only in the Happy Rainbow Land where everyone is a good person and is full of Ponnies and Moogles. But we know that is not, so it is necessary a lot of restrictions.

It is very hard to accomplish without cause a heavy gap on the community.Isolating players with no enough skill from others (that already happen, but this will cause a even bigger gap).

Just a quick note on the first and last ones, we certainly don't want to punish players by having them HAVE to keep someone in party who's underperforming, for fear of punishment, nor discourage them from making use of FFLogs. For example, I've never given my consent to my static members uploading parses, so anything goes up, good or bad, and being that I don't (can't) parse, I generally have no say on it, lest I restrict everyone's numbers from being uploaded. Perhaps my absolute worst run was someone's best, and I wouldn't want to deny them that.

[Xlantaa]

Just a quick note on the first and last ones, we certainly don't want to punish players by having them HAVE to keep someone in party who's underperforming, for fear of punishment, nor discourage them from making use of FFLogs. For example, I've never given my consent to my static members uploading parses, so anything goes up, good or bad, and being that I don't (can't) parse, I generally have no say on it, lest I restrict everyone's numbers from being uploaded. Perhaps my absolute worst run was someone's best, and I wouldn't want to deny them that.

This a a FFLOGs problem, since the page has not private options, (the only one is you can hide data for your character). But that not prevent form data upload. That web need more tools to configure and allow only what you want to show, limit for example to only you static members. And ignore/erase any parser you don't want, but without block others form upload their data, just ignoring yours. FFlogs needs much more private options, but that's a third party site and it has no place in this thread discussion.

[kikix12]

Ultimately, as an MMO, this game is "public domain". Whatever you do within, your numbers, your chat...all of it is "public" to a greater or lesser degree. Square Enix itself shows a surprising lot of information about players through lodestone.

As such, consent for sharing public information is not really required. That applies both in real world and in this, and there are very few limitations on what information is excluded (largely offensive or intimate one) from this freedom.

Parsers and the corresponding logs thusly are in no way restricted by regulations of any sort (whether or not that is "proper" is another thing entirely). It's just a matter of Square Enix not wanting to take chances on the possibility of them affecting the community negatively, while still requiring time and money to develop.

[ThirdChild_ZKI]

This a a FFLOGs problem, since the page has not private options, (the only one is you can hide data for your character). But that not prevent form data upload. That web need more tools to configure and allow only what you want to show, limit for example to only you static members. And ignore/erase any parser you don't want, but without block others form upload their data, just ignoring yours. FFlogs needs much more private options, but that's a third party site and it has no place in this thread discussion.

I noted before that people are very much selective about what numbers go up. I simply noted that in my case, unless I hide my own (which has its own implications), or request that my entire team's parses not be uploaded if somehow my specific numbers aren't great, I simply have to let whatever goes up stand and speak for me. For that reason, and others unimportant to the topic at hand, I care very little for what goes up there. I DO care if my team and I perform well, but anyone trying to progress can see that right in front of them when it's happening. I'd agree it could use more tools, but largely, it's not the data and management that needs work, it's the players and how they choose to use it. I know that may be stepping on toes a bit to say that, but let's not act like we haven't seen examples of what I mean in this very topic itself.

[Oscura]

The only way to reduce to minimum the parse impact is making the abuse (abuse in ANY possible way, that includes kick or discrimination on a player for underperfoming) punishable:

Any party which kick form a duty (ANY DUTY) because numbers are not good for them (ANY number, under-performing or not).
Any party who deliberately discriminate in PF, prohibiting player form join if not enough DPS for them, even if that player can complete the duty.
Any person who mock or harass a player because his numbers.
Any player who upload the data to a third party site (FFLogs type), specially if not have the party member consent.

Kicking someone from a PF group is not abuse. Let's get that out of the way right now. If someone as the leader of their PF decides they hate the glamour, race, name, or server of a person, they are in their right to kick that person. It may make them a jerk, or anything like that, but it is not against the rules and it is not abuse. Anyone can make a party finder group, so it is not like you are being directly excluded because you cannot join one person's party.

There are already parties that discriminate in PF, demanding high dps or consistent dps from other players. We don't even have an official parser in game yet people will still demand these things and kick anyone who doesn't meet their criteria.

Mocking and harassing people over numbers is already punishable and even if a parser becomes official it will still be punishable.

FFlogs will always realistically be a grey area regardless of how anyone feels about it.

My main issue with this post is that it implies kicking anyone for their DPS or for underperforming or holding the group back is "abuse," or as if it's morally wrong. Even today, people are kicked from party finder groups, duty finder groups, etc, for many other reasons that more or less qualify for the same thing. Not being able to dodge AoEs. Not being able to meet heal checks as a healer. Not properly managing or using cooldowns at all as tanks. Failing the same mechanic every time the user is given that mechanic, the list goes on. Parsing and damage numbers should not be excluded from this list, just because it bruises people's fragile egos. To take a hard stance that "no one should be kicked for their DPS numbers at any point," you are essentially arguing that no one should be kicked from any content period for any reason at all, because the person would feel bad about it. You cannot argue that someone is more justified in kicking someone for not meeting a heal check and then say that the same person can't kick someone for not meeting a DPS check. It's a literal contradiction.