Built-in Parsers

[DeaconMoore]

I appreciate your honesty. What criteria would you use to determine someone was looking to be carried versus someone who plays a job which naturally does less damage per second?

My bar? It's not going to be the same as everyone else. You'll see people with differing opinions. But sure, my bar is someone claiming to know and cleared the fight cranking out substantially less than they should be for what they're playing with. I also consider if they were lower due to clutch plays such as hard casting a res. I won't fault someone for trying to make the run a success. If they're new to the fight I expect them to suck it up and am more forgiving, especially if they're a guildmate trying to break into the game.

This is a poor example. Of course you'll know when you mess up an intrinsic part of your rotation, especially if it results in a death.. What a parse does is show the numerical effect on smaller mistakes or what part of your rotation is worth sacrificing if a mechanic comes up. "Should I use Battle Litany here or time it with raid buffs?" "Will Chaos Thrust last or would double Full Thrust be better?"

And yes, it judges other players based on their numbers. I fail to see the negative when used properly. Per my example a few pages back, Mr. Rockbreaker Monk basically contributed 50% less than his role should, forcing the other players to pick up her slack. This inherently makes deaths potentially more difficult to recover. Why shouldn't players who are woefully underperforming be "called out"? It doesn't need to be aggressively, but I'm also not there to carry someone else who, frankly, isn't yet suited for Savage.

Yes, you do have to make judgement calls on when to use your abilities. And yes a parse will show you your numbers going down and going up. And you will learn the things you point out over the course of your play. Preferably in trivial content or the target dummy. You shouldn't be learning to play your class at it's best when you should be learning and clearing the fight. That's where my deadly boss mods point comes from. It helps you plan ahead so you can do your best when it counts. The parse would just confirm if you nailed it or failed it after the fact.

And as I never said I'm anti-parse (i'm pro), I also never said someone shouldn't get called out, nor did I say they should aggressively get called out for that matter. I just said it's going to happen. It just doesn't happen now so much because the first rule of it is you don't talk about it.

[Kacho_Nacho]

My bar? It's not going to be the same as everyone else. You'll see people with differing opinions. But sure, my bar is someone claiming to know and cleared the fight cranking out substantially less than they should be for what they're playing with. I also consider if they were lower due to clutch plays such as hard casting a res. I won't fault someone for trying to make the run a success. If they're new to the fight I expect them to suck it up and am more forgiving, especially if they're a guildmate trying to break into the game.

Thank you for going into detail.

It's a good example why a parser is not a bad thing, but you'll still have these people who will cry that parsers are the most evil thing in the world.

There is no need to descend into hyperbole just because I and others are against having parsers in the game. The example Whiskybravo gave was of the proper use of parser.

The issue is a number of people feel parsers will be improperly used by a significant number of FFXIV subscribers who will only look at the dps numbers and nothing else.

Furthermore, it is believed this trend of looking at only the "magic dps number" will extend well beyond cutting edge content down to even the beginning dungeons.

These beliefs did not come from thin air. All of us have had experience with games which allowed parsers.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

And as I never said I'm anti-parse (i'm pro), I also never said someone shouldn't get called out, nor did I say they should aggressively get called out for that matter. I just said it's going to happen. It just doesn't happen now so much because the first rule of it is you don't talk about it.

And I disagree. The number of people I see whining over poor DPS only to see their DPS among the worst is astonishing. Toxic people will be toxic regardless. ACT won't lead to sudden wide-spread harassment unless SE decides to ignore harassment complaints. The issue often is people don't want to hear they aren't perfect, especially if its their mistakes causing wipes.

I <3 this reply. While I don't think stubborn people who knowingly join parties out of their league should get carried, they are probably the minority of the low DPS players who get slandered. I stated in a previous reply how much better it would be if people would take the time to identify why a party member is under-performing and let them know. Nicely. You don't have to keep these players in your party but at least dismiss them with friendly advice.

The irony is a lot of people will depending on the type of PF you join. What tends to happen is someone joins a farm or enrage party, cannot keep up and then complains when players in said party get frustrated with them. That all said, Whiskey's post highlights the precise reason parses are invaluable for self-improvement. You just aren't going to see the differences between raid utility, buffs and how best to utilize them.

Depends. Is that 20% lower still within the required DPS to clear? If so then the issue clearly isn't with the party's DPS and they are failing mechanics. However, a group will likely just kick that 20% less DPS in favor of trying to push out more DPS in hopes of winning. As players are able to push out greater numbers they will gradually expect the overall community to do the same regardless whether or not the content requires it.

Why, pray tell, is this a bad thing? Even fine-tuning mechanical awareness, you are still asking the remaining seven players to pick up the slack for someone else. Why should I potentially have to pot or should the healers have to break well over 1,500+ each because a Monk can't deal decent damage relative to their ilvl? 20% isn't exactly insignificant either. Should the group fix mechanical errors and deaths? Absolutely. But just brute forcing through is why you'll see Samurai pulling 2,600 DPS in Neo, which is absurdly low yet they have little incentive to improve if it gets them a clear. "Just grit and bear it" breeds a complacent mentality and, in my opinion, is why so many players aren't particularly good at the game.

[DeaconMoore]

And I disagree. The number of people I see whining over poor DPS only to see their DPS among the worst is astonishing. Toxic people will be toxic regardless. ACT won't lead to sudden wide-spread harassment unless SE decides to ignore harassment complaints. The issue often is people don't want to hear they aren't perfect, especially if its their mistakes causing wipes.

Oh? Are you honestly telling me you have no fear of getting banned and have no hesitation talking in ingame chat with someone you just met about their crappy dps right now?

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Oh? Are you honestly telling me you have no fear of getting banned and have no hesitation talking in ingame chat with someone you just met about their crappy dps right now?

I never said that. You insinuated publicly available parses would essentially open the flood gates for toxic behavior. It won't, because people who are toxic don't need to bring up ACT to go off on someone. If I really want to call anyone out, I'll just say "I watched your rotation and you're doing it wrong." They can say I'm parsing all they fancy but GMs won't do a thing unless you specifically mention numbers. Believe me, I have seen some very passive aggressive to downright hostile responses yet they aren't bringing up parse numbers even if it's obvious they have them. Just a few weeks back someone accused a friend of buying her Savage clears because she kept dying in Ala Mhigo due to lag spikes. Like I said, you don't need to run a parse to be a jerk nor will parses necessarily make people jerks.

[DeaconMoore]

I never said that. You insinuated publicly available parses would essentially open the flood gates for toxic behavior. It won't, because people who are toxic don't need to bring up ACT to go off on someone. If I really want to call anyone out, I'll just say "I watched your rotation and you're doing it wrong." They can say I'm parsing all they fancy but GMs won't do a thing unless you specifically mention numbers. Believe me, I have seen some very passive aggressive to downright hostile responses yet they aren't bringing up parse numbers even if it's obvious they have them. Just a few weeks back someone accused a friend of buying her Savage clears because she kept dying in Ala Mhigo due to lag spikes. Like I said, you don't need to run a parse to be a jerk nor will parses necessarily make people jerks.

*sigh*
I never said an official parser would suddenly make people more "toxic". I said dps call outs would happen more and openly. You even acknowledge that as things are now you can indeed get into trouble talking about someones dps numbers, that has a chilling effect. Not every silent kick is for the giggles.

Snip

LOL Oh man. You really are a sadist aren't you? Have you ever actually tried to learn how to properly play your class with constant wipes and waiting around to refill your ranks? You really want people to be learning their stuff under those conditions? That's just pure evil mate. You need a stable safe environment to properly experiment and perfect before you head into the chaos to make it work. Parsers need to be on outside of just endgame content.

Parsers outside of endgame are great for learning. Parsers in endgame are great for seeing performance. You don't just up and decide to run a marathon out of the blue and not have a heart attack. You spend time training for it. Don't abuse your party mates and waste their time learning to play your class while everyone is trying to learn the fight.

[Taika]

LOL Oh man. You really are a sadist aren't you? Have you ever actually tried to learn how to properly play your class with constant wipes and waiting around to refill your ranks? You really want people to be learning their stuff under those conditions? That's just pure evil mate. You need a stable safe environment to properly experiment and perfect before you head into the chaos to make it work. Parsers need to be on outside of just endgame content.

You've completely lost me. I've learned every single piece of endgame content in this game (outside of Ultimate which I haven't even tried yet) in a group that's been parsed, step by step. I don't understand what you refer to by constant wipes and refilling my ranks - I specifically said people shouldn't be replaced because of DPS from learning parties since it's not really possible to be holding those back (unless the learning is about a phase with enrage).

Edit: Did you somehow understand that I'd advice people to learn their basic rotations in extreme or Savage fights? Of course not, that's what SSS dummies and other training dummies are for (and SSS already works as a parser for that). I'm talking about learning to optimise your rotation for a specific fight. That can't be done outside of that specific fight, and parser is a great help in that.

[SDaemon]

Why, pray tell, is this a bad thing? Even fine-tuning mechanical awareness, you are still asking the remaining seven players to pick up the slack for someone else. Why should I potentially have to pot or should the healers have to break well over 1,500+ each because a Monk can't deal decent damage relative to their ilvl? 20% isn't exactly insignificant either. Should the group fix mechanical errors and deaths? Absolutely. But just brute forcing through is why you'll see Samurai pulling 2,600 DPS in Neo, which is absurdly low yet they have little incentive to improve if it gets them a clear. "Just grit and bear it" breeds a complacent mentality and, in my opinion, is why so many players aren't particularly good at the game.

Why is what a bad thing? Kicking a player for not DPSing on par with the rest of the group, even though their personal DPS is sufficient to make the DPS checks? Why WOULD you kick them? Their DPS is clearly not the issue that is causing the enrage to happen. If it is then they clearly aren't meeting the personal DPS requirement and the point is moot, and he'll need to improve or be replaced. Also, the comment about brute forcing was in regards to them kicking that 20% less DPS player in favor of a DPS that will push higher numbers, even though the original player was doing their fair share of the DPS in order to meet the DPS check.

[Bourne_Endeavor]

Why is what a bad thing? Kicking a player for not DPSing on par with the rest of the group, even though their personal DPS is sufficient to make the DPS checks? Why WOULD you kick them? Their DPS is clearly not the issue that is causing the enrage to happen. If it is then they clearly aren't meeting the personal DPS requirement and the point is moot, and he'll need to improve or be replaced. Also, the comment about brute forcing was in regards to them kicking that 20% less DPS player in favor of a DPS that will push higher numbers, even though the original player was doing their fair share of the DPS in order to meet the DPS check.

For the precise reasons I said. Seven other players have to play better to make up the difference for someone who either isn't playing their job properly or messing up. Now I wouldn't necessarily boot them if they aren't dying, but I also can't entirely blame people who don't like carrying. Once again, 20% isn't insignificant. I average roughly 5k+ on Samurai. Using that as a benchmark, you're giving up 1k+ on a job whose sole contribution is high damage. Furthermore, your dichotomy takes away all accountability for personal improvement. DPS checks are generally lax in Savage, at least recently. So basically, do mechanics and if your DPS isn't good, someone else will make up the difference. Why is that acceptable? If all four DPS asked like that, you may not have the DPS anymore.

Now if the group is failing mechanics, you address that issue first. And most people will. I just dislike the mentality of "do the bare minimum." Not to mention, your scenario doesn't really work because if another player can slot in and suddenly you have a clear, damage was the issue.

[SDaemon]

snip

No, they don't, those 7 other players are not making up any difference. If each DPS needs to do 4400 personal DPS in order to safely clear the encounter's DPS requirements and 3 of those DPS do 5500 and 1 does 4400. Where are they making up the difference? Could that 1 DPS improve and get to 5500 like the rest? Sure, but why would you kick that player when they are doing their fair share of the DPS requirements burden?

Not to mention, your scenario doesn't really work because if another player can slot in and suddenly you have a clear, damage was the issue.

That wasn't my scenario though. Conversely, if the group slots another player and they still don't clear then the damage was not the issue, despite that player before doing their fair share of the DPS.