Black Mage

[Remedi]

While I do agree SMN get punished really hard by death, if we're speaking about playing perfectly we can pretty much assume death is not a big factor. Whatever the class is, 1min+ of weakness is enough to ruin your performance.


BLM tends to get punished a lot more for small mistakes. Forgot about the precise timing on a mechanic preventing you from casting (which could be hard to track due to a flexible rotation) and you may end up either losing a few DPS by being forced to fire I instead of 4, or if this happens during the Fire 1 cast (about 1 chance over 4) you may end up having to transpose and lose a lot more.

I would argue that BLM is one of the hardest class in the game to play perfectly as you have to not only have the whole fight planned in advance but also to adapt on the flight to a flexible rotation, 6min into a fight you can't even plan ahead if you'll be in ice or fire even if you're a very consistent player.

Also data seems to agree on this, the lower the percentile is, the more lacking BLM dps tends to be compared to every other classes in the game. Sure at the top level if you're looking at 99+ percentile (or even MAX damage which is meaningless but a lot of people seems to focus on it) BLM may seems in a good spot, but at this point you're comparing classes played perfectly with luck on the side of the players and maybe some catering.
When looking below at still good parses like 90 percentile (reminder that this is the top 10% of raiders, further skewed by having usually more good players parsing than casuals), and BLM start to stop being competitive even on personal damage. at below 70 percentile it falls behind monk, and at very low percentile like 20 which still represent 1/5 of the player base have BLM as the third WORSE PERSONNAL damage.

As a PF group leader, why would I try to take a BLM which even if slightly above average like 60percentile is either doing 5% less damage than a SAM with the same utility, or doing slightly lower damage than a SMN or a MNK both of which have some offensive and defensive utilities ?
lets face it for a purely selfish dps class to even deserve a spot it needs to do more damage than all other classes with utility, a bit like SAM is doing (and arguably this isn't even enough)

If we are talking about playing perfectly yes death is not a big factor but balance is not done on perfect play as such I think that argument is valid.
I do agree with the rest, however I dunno if what really needed is either a dmg buff or a cast speed buff atm, or a nerf to SMN utility or personal ds. I have some ideas on that matter but since I don't play the class often I dunno the full extent of what it would lead to. I mean we need also to a have a slight modicum of foresight to see if the cure is better than the illness or we'll back to square one eventually.

[TsuKoj]

If we are talking about playing perfectly yes death is not a big factor but balance is not done on perfect play as such I think that argument is valid.
I do agree with the rest, however I dunno if what really needed is either a dmg buff or a cast speed buff atm, or a nerf to SMN utility or personal ds. I have some ideas on that matter but since I don't play the class often I dunno the full extent of what it would lead to. I mean we need also to a have a slight modicum of foresight to see if the cure is better than the illness or we'll back to square one eventually.

Actually balance should only ever be done at perfect play, since that is the maximum capability of the class.* I also don't think smn should be nerfed, I think casters in general need to be buffed. Rdm should be as good as brd/mch, smn should be as good as nin/drg/mnk, blm should be as good as sam(although sam isn't in a great spot either). There should be parity between the physical and magic classes. The whole ranged is an utility thing se is clinging onto is just false in most relevant content. It was true when leveling and it was true in arr. But now when every boss has room wide aoes, stack markers, a scripted dance, dps targeted aoes, and dynamo style aoes; range is no longer a benefit, and since ranged gets punished with cast timers already, being melee might actually be the utility.

*Utility/ability based around having messed up badly never ends up well. In competitive games they are not even considered a benefit at all. In shooters/mobas you wouldn't ever take an ability that says you only give up half a kill/half the gold to the enemy if you die over something like just a +10% more damage. Ones hedging on you being bad, the other is betting on you being good.

[Remedi]

Actually balance should only ever be done at perfect play, since that is the maximum capability of the class. I also don't think smn should be nerfed, I think casters in general need to be buffed. Rdm should be as good as brd/mch, smn should be as good as nin/drg/mnk, blm should be as good as sam(although sam isn't in a great spot either). There should be parity between the physical and magic classes. The whole ranged is an utility thing se is clinging onto is just false in most relevant content. It was true when leveling and it was true in arr. But now when every boss has room wide aoes, stack markers, a scripted dance, dps targeted aoes, and dynamo style aoes; range is no longer a benefit, and since ranged gets punished with cast timers already, being melee might actually be the utility.

Balance beign done at perfect play and perfect gear is the reason why on some games classes are broken.
It's not the perfect players that are heard the most by devs, but the other ones, why you think BRD and MCH got buffed so much in HW? because on some feelings those jobs felt weak, not realizing that changes to them can create butterfly unpredicted butterfly effects, that is the reason I don't talk about what they should do to SMN imho because I don't know exactly how it'll change the situation, selfish dps is a bit easier to predict because of that.
Also pls if you think that other guy is not right, I don't get what you'll achieve by antagonizing him further it'll just derail the discussion imho

[TsuKoj]

Also pls if you think that other guy is not right, I don't get what you'll achieve by antagonizing him further it'll just derail the discussion imho

Your right, but it is a symbol of our difference in thinking about balance. Since blm is an easy to learn and hard to master class, balance issues and concerns at higher levels of play often get drowned out by a lot of more casual players saying there is no issue with the class since it's working well at their levels of play. I realize blms are fine in expert roulette, and in expert trials, and can clear the current savage, however even then there are glaring issues with the class that does need to be addressed, and having someone say it's fine when they obviously haven't yet reached the point where the issues arises is frustrating.

[Llugen]

Your right, but it is a symbol of our difference in thinking about balance. Since blm is an easy to learn and hard to master class, balance issues and concerns at higher levels of play often get drowned out by a lot of more casual players saying there is no issue with the class since it's working well at their levels of play. I realize blms are fine in expert roulette, and in expert trials, and can clear the current savage, however even then there are glaring issues with the class that does need to be addressed, and having someone say it's fine when they obviously haven't yet reached the point where the issues arises is frustrating.

Someone give this man a medal.

[Kabooa]

If we are talking about playing perfectly yes death is not a big factor but balance is not done on perfect play as such I think that argument is valid.
I do agree with the rest, however I dunno if what really needed is either a dmg buff or a cast speed buff atm.

Jobs aren't balanced around the assumption that they die. That's honestly kind of ridiculous to say.

However, Black Mages in general seem to be divided on the best way to solve this. Some want more damage. I'm in the camp where I'd like a unique utility tool or targeted buff that the other casters don't bring.

Damage fixes are bandage fixes, while tools unique to a job / role generally allow you to build more interesting compositions than "It's like PDPS, but with a black mage"

[Remedi]

Normally they aren't but since Ress in combat are a thing in this game, it's something that I would consider as a dev, I dunno if they do, surely is a topic some use.

If you ask me I still believe they can sort out the pure dmg thing with support dmg thing, however it depends on them beign true to the stance which so far was not so much upheld (although I was able to predict some changes here and there to try and rectify their mistakes)
Honestly though the ship is sailed so I don't expect anything more than bandain from now