Black Mage

[BlackcatChen]

>But again, the numbers also don't lie. The argument that "personal" DPS doesn't matter as much as "contribution" is worthless, considering all those comps still rely on somewhat hard hitting DPSes being given higher damage through support.

Yeah, they don't. Personal DPS does not equal raid DPS contribution.

[nugglets]

"But again, the numbers also don't lie. The argument that "personal" DPS doesn't matter as much as "contribution" is worthless, considering all those comps still rely on somewhat hard hitting DPSes being given higher damage through support."

If this statement were true, then the fastest kills (those with the highest overall raid DPS) wouldn't be consistently compromised of classes NOT in the top 4 "hard hitting DPSes" that you linked.

[Ferrinus]

A black mage’s unique contribution to a raid is how much higher their dps is than the baseline. That comes out not just in hitting harder gcd for gcd, but also in getting a bigger absolute benefit from other party members’ damage buffs.

There definitely exists some margin by which “greedy” dps like blms could exceed “generous” dps like bards that would make them worth bringing. For instance, if a black mage did literally double the damage a bard or dragoon boasted, the vast amount of damage that ast cards, dragon eye tethers, etc could add would outweigh the benefits of bringing yet another party buffer. The question is, how big is that margin?

[Kabooa]

There definitely exists some margin by which “greedy” dps like blms could exceed “generous” dps like bards that would make them worth bringing. For instance, if a black mage did literally double the damage a bard or dragoon boasted, the vast amount of damage that ast cards, dragon eye tethers, etc could add would outweigh the benefits of bringing yet another party buffer. The question is, how big is that margin?

You ultimately cannot balance with this philosophy. You either create a scenario where the job is mandatory because the damage advantage is insurmountable, or you have the scenario now, where you might be able to provide more 'baseline' dps, but the margin is so low you might as well bring something else, that not only is in the same damage range, but has more utility to boot.

5% is about the range where it's an insignificant amount, certainly not worth the 'pure cannon' tax on utility and other tools, and 15% is about the point where it starts getting into an unhealthy advantage. Anything in between might balance out with RDPS contribution, but you then still have the issue where the contribution to the bottom line is so close, you might as well just bring the Summoner -because they boost everyone else- or the Red mage because they have unrivaled recovery in bad situations.

[Ferrinus]

You ultimately cannot balance with this philosophy. You either create a scenario where the job is mandatory because the damage advantage is insurmountable, or you have the scenario now, where you might be able to provide more 'baseline' dps, but the margin is so low you might as well bring something else, that not only is in the same damage range, but has more utility to boot..

I’m not seeing where you can’t balance with this philosophy. You yourself have just implicitly offered ten (or twelve, or thereabouts) as an acceptable benchmark. If we wanted to do some more advanced napkin math, we could just assume that generous dps offer a 5% (or something; I’m sure the reality is lower, and might exclude the dps themselves) on-average global boost with a 4k baseline and solve 4*4000*1.05^4 = 3*4000*1.05^3 + X * 1.05^3.

[Remedi]

You do realize there'll always be a meta where a job will be better than the others for w/e reason right?

[Lelila38]

You do realize there'll always be a meta where a job will be better than the others for w/e reason right?

And that's a reason for the job that's got the short end of the stick to not say anything?
Being vocal about how unhappy you are with what they're doing to tour class is important. Look at Smn, they were real loud, now they got pretty much everything they were asking for. Don't just quietly accept it, if there's something you don't like.

[Remedi]

And that's a reason for the job that's got the short end of the stick to not say anything?
Being vocal about how unhappy you are with what they're doing to tour class is important. Look at Smn, they were real loud, now they got pretty much everything they were asking for. Don't just quietly accept it, if there's something you don't like.

Beign loud means nothing if you don't tackle the real problems, most of the smn in the forum had no integrity or they would have understood that using aetherskills during DWT was never the intention of the devs, why I say this? Because when they presented HW SMN they told them what was their intention for it, as such when they found out it wasn't working that way they should have tipped the dev on that, they didn't and they got shafted and now they are still moaning about all of that like kids.
And this is the reasons also why BRD and MCH got buffed to extreme levels during HW.
Beside all of that you should know that ppl will find ANY excuse to bring a class over another, sometimes is just better not to give in to certain deviations that are community driven. So far I see here mostly moans and no real discussions on how to identify and possibly fix eventually problems, but mostly ppl accusing each other about who's a pro raider or who's not

[Neela]

And that's a reason for the job that's got the short end of the stick to not say anything?
Being vocal about how unhappy you are with what they're doing to tour class is important. Look at Smn, they were real loud, now they got pretty much everything they were asking for. Don't just quietly accept it, if there's something you don't like.

"everything" we asked for? well not at all although all the changes a quite nice - they absolutely skipped the MAIN problem and the real issue out in the fog. SMN & MCHs (even MNK like I learned shortly) problems aren't dps or to compete with their rival cls' - their main issue is the "feeling" of clunkiness (for most of the com). so no we haven't got "everything" we asked for, especially not the most important thing: a Bahamut-rework. He's still an Enton-like Lemming... "oh move... where to? ah left... *dangle* *dangle* oh... atk ah na just move on *dangle*... Enton? Enton. Enton!" : /

on a sidenote:
isn't it kinda weird that although we have another caster now - discussions about caster balance are still based on the comparison of Blm vs. Smn but rarely about Blm vs. Rdm - im just wondering why. If Blm are on top Smns cry, if Smns get buffed Blms cry. I assume Rdms are just smiling about those never-ending e-penis war between Blm & Smn... ^^'

[Grimoire-M]

I'm a BRD main and I agree that BLM does need some love. I'm in the one comp that would prefer if I was something else. My co-dps are NIN/RDM/BLM, and Foes/crit simply isn't enough for them. SMN's Contagion alone would be far better for both of our casters if I swapped to it. The problem is this is such a niche comp to begin with that it's hard to tell if it's even worth it compared to the ideal comp that is DRG/NIN/MCH/BRD. I don't think standard raid utility's the way to go about it. Something like MNK's Brotherhood would be better for BLM. Or giving a weaker Enochian effect to allies while you maintain it. Like Foes, but constant.

I'd love to see fire IV's potency increased and its cast time reduced to 2.5s too. Currently the old ARR rotation isn't a big hit to your dps for the flexibility it gains while you're learning a fight. You can do a good chunk of prog with BLM by simply swapping to that rotation once new things hit you. I'd like for that to remain, but using Fire IV to its fullest extent should be encouraged more by buffing it.