Black Mage

[Lelila38]

"everything" we asked for? well not at all although all the changes a quite nice - they absolutely skipped the MAIN problem and the real issue out in the fog. SMN & MCHs (even MNK like I learned shortly) problems aren't dps or to compete with there rival cls' - there main issue is the "feeling" of clunkiness. so no we don't have got "everything" we asked for especially not the most important thing. : /

It said "pretty much everything" as in maybe not everything but most of it. I don't play Smn, I have no clue what you guys problems were or are. I just used it as an example for the fact that there are several high used threads about it and stuff got addressed. No need to be angry at me for saying what I see.
And I was just answering to someone who basically told us to do what we've been doing for a long time, be quiet and hope it gets better. It did not. Blm keeps getting overlooked.

[Neela]

well Blm will never be "overlooked" for long - as we all know its the ceos cls. so maybe she's right they will take a look at blm for sure. saying that im not angry nor ive meant to be. but its kinda hypercritical to say "they got all the want" even if the things were just minor fixes compared to where the problem really lies. It's not that Smn now is on top of the world without any issues - they got more flexibility and mobility yes, but it was always intended to be like this before Rdm dropped - now they got their base-advantage back or even tweaked and everybody screams it is way to powerful.... : /

[Remedi]

I was not saying that they should play the wait game, I was annoyed that they topic has nearly nothing on the analyzation of blm problems but mostly butting head against each other and complaining about what other have

[BlackcatChen]

I was not saying that they should play the wait game, I was annoyed that they topic has nearly nothing on the analyzation of blm problems but mostly butting head against each other and complaining about what other have

It's because BLM's problems are directly related to the way the game is balanced currently. Ranged provide more raid DPS by a fairly significant margin (only slightly less personal dps, but with some of the best raid damage buffs in the game), get affected by mechanics less (no cast times), have better defensive utility (troub, minne, dismantle, pali vs addle and apoc), and better resource utility (refresh vs mana shift). BLM doesn't have a single advantage over them for that slot.

By SE's own words on how they balance jobs, this is just wrong on every level. People are complaining because it's unfair.

You want a real solution? Get rid of disembowel, make trick 5%, and make shadewalker a role action for melee. But since that will probably never happen - buff BLM's personal damage so they would at least be worth it for that.

[Remedi]

It's because BLM's problems are directly related to the way the game is balanced currently. Ranged provide more raid DPS by a fairly significant margin (only slightly less personal dps, but with some of the best raid damage buffs in the game), get affected by mechanics less (no cast times), have better defensive utility (troub, minne, dismantle, pali vs addle and apoc), and better resource utility (refresh vs mana shift). BLM doesn't have a single advantage over them for that slot.

By SE's own words on how they balance jobs, this is just wrong on every level. People are complaining because it's unfair.

You want a real solution? Get rid of disembowel, make trick 5%, and make shadewalker a role action for melee. But since that will probably never happen - buff BLM's personal damage so they would at least be worth it for that.

That's also an effct of ppl not beign good at analyzing what a job should do and mostly asking for dmg buff for their selfish reason, WAR got an unnecessary newe CD that just upset tank balance because they brought nothing to the party.
Guess what they were meant to bring nothing but their dps and defense.
Saying that it's unfair that Ranged dps bring many buff or that BLM doesn't bring a raise to the table won't really solve anything, if dmg is the problem then maybe yes a dmg buff needs to be done, however do take notice that you can't balance the game based on the speedkill meta you can work around that yes but there's always something that will come up on top no matter what.
Also you need to consider how badly jobs are compared to each other really, what is really broken is when a job is so bad that you cannot complete the figth with not when you cannot complete the fight asap, that just invokes unnecessary power creeps

Also tbh I don't consider shadewalker as needed as before now that shirk is a thing tbh

edit: BTW when actually the SMN getting so high on the logs happened? before of after radiant shield dmg was beign accredited to them? last time I checked it was 3-4 weeks after savage release and it wasn't like that, maybe just maybe that is something to look at

[BlackcatChen]

So then... what are the criteria for judging balance between DPS jobs?

How is it not affected by these factors?
- how fast the job helps you kill a fight
- how a job is affected by fight mechanics
- the resources a job helps replenish so that a run can keep going smoothly
- mitigation and defensive utility to help you clear or help with healer damage
- external utility hate or battle res

It doesn't take a genius to note that black mage is worse in every single one of these categories.

If you are worried about job identity isn't the fix obvious? Give BLM more damage.

[GospelVhae]

however do take notice that you can't balance the game based on the speedkill meta you can work around that yes but there's always something that will come up on top no matter what.

This isn't even about BLM should be on top of the speedkill meta. This is about BLMs not being brought to speedkills at all. Hell, there are even top 10 speedkills for o3s that has RDMon it, a job that is a borderline burden past progression which is only saved by Embolden, a utility/rdps skill, and have skills that benefit from Disembowel.

To make matters worse, they gave SMN, another "utility" job that somehow gets ahead of the selfish BLM, a raid buff of all things! This violates SE's whole "utilitiy dps have less personal dps than selfish ones" monologue.

While I agree that balancing around speedkills is not something everyone agrees on, but SE should take notice why nobody takes this one job for competitive PVE and act on it.

[NoctusT]

you can't balance the game based on the speedkill meta you can work around that yes but there's always something that will come up on top no matter what.

The problem still persists, even if you remove speedkills from consideration. The OP talked about the homogenization of the caster role as well. In Creator for ex, you could still take a BLM into prog because apoc still had some good use in fights like A12S. Right now, with apoc being available to every caster, and with the addition of RDM, there's just no reason you would ever take BLM into prog for a fight. Since, as mentioned multiple times by everyone here, we don't do enough damage to justify taking us into progression NOR for farming the fights afterwards.

The speedkill meta is only one facet of the problem. Since SE is so hellbent on buffing damage for other jobs, why not help BLM too?

[Remedi]

The problem still persists, even if you remove speedkills from consideration. The OP talked about the homogenization of the caster role as well. In Creator for ex, you could still take a BLM into prog because apoc still had some good use in fights like A12S. Right now, with apoc being available to every caster, and with the addition of RDM, there's just no reason you would ever take BLM into prog for a fight. Since, as mentioned multiple times by everyone here, we don't do enough damage to justify taking us into progression NOR for farming the fights afterwards.

The speedkill meta is only one facet of the problem. Since SE is so hellbent on buffing damage for other jobs, why not help BLM too?

I also said that there are many facets to this like overall difficulty of the job and let's be reasonable SMN is harder to play perfectly and get shafted harder by death.
I do agree that a dmg buff could solve some problems, but as other have pointed there's also the fact that melee synergy or ranged synergy are simply better.
In theory SMN having high dmg would help BLM+SMN comp, however that is not the case as we know or maybe it hasn't been tested enough.
Anyway seems to me that now the discussion is going somewhere at least, which was my intention

[Remedi]

It isn't the worse in all of the factors in fact:
You have better personal defensive Cds than other ranged and casters
Also you are not as affected by dying than SMN for example, giving them easier to summon pets doesn't change that yiou lose everything in the demi bahamut department, as a BLM you get set back by at worst 30 secs

So no it's not worse in all those instances, pls we do not need exaggeration we need facts, also you haven't answered me either