WAR raid "UTILITY" (Tank Balanced achieved?)

[Aana]

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The hypocrisy is whining that TBN 'isn't raid utility' because a shield 'doesn't help people much' while in the same breath whining about other tanks having shields for other people being to much raid utility.

You don't get it both ways. Shielding party members either is, or is not raid utility. If it is, then drk has some, and then move along to discussing the power and nuances of those abilities and the entire kit of the job itself. If it isn't, then you cant call party mitigation of any kind raid utility because they do the same thing. Reducing damage taken or giving shields are functionally the same use. If the fact that its single target means as, you put it, 'is for the MT and therefore not utility' then neither is cover or intervention.

Directly protecting other members of your party with mitigation for very low or zero costs cant be a worthless party trick on drk but absurdly OP because its on war or pld. Pick one.

[Claire_Pendragon]

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Im confused who you're addressing with this. You quoted my post, when I was in agreement with it being utility, but then are saying something someone else said, as if the statements were directly related to eachother.

[Aana]

Im confused who you're addressing with this. You quoted my post, when I was in agreement with it being utility, but then are saying something someone else said, as if the statements were directly related to eachother.

Edited for clarity. Was responding to Chrono both complaining about other jobs raid utility while simultaneously dismissing Drk's wholesale. You are correct though on your points. Would only add that looking at 'top drks' as a model for using tbn is a poor comparison. The 99% people are having the entire raid work towards feeding that person so they can get a top number. Personal balance cards, working party mechanics around that individuals uptime. Of course they aren't going to use a (slight) dps loss utility when they are going for personal dps records with the party on board for that goal.

Look down the list a bit at the 'good' runs where healers and MT aren't bending over backwards to cater to 1 persons record numbers. The highest combined tank and healer DPS runs do use TBN because its a mitigation buff at a miniscule cost which frees up more healer DPS and tank CD conservation for the group as a whole.

[Chrono_Rising]

The hypocrisy is whining that TBN 'isn't raid utility' because a shield 'doesn't help people much' while in the same breath whining about other tanks having shields for other people being to much raid utility.

You don't get it both ways. Shielding party members either is, or is not raid utility. If it is, then drk has some, and then move along to discussing the power and nuances of those abilities and the entire kit of the job itself. If it isn't, then you cant call party mitigation of any kind raid utility because they do the same thing. Reducing damage taken or giving shields are functionally the same use. If the fact that its single target means as, you put it, 'is for the MT and therefore not utility' then neither is cover or intervention.

Directly protecting other members of your party with mitigation for very low or zero costs cant be a worthless party trick on drk but absurdly OP because its on war or pld. Pick one.

If you cannot see the difference in being able to shield an entire party vs. shielding one person during aoe I'm not certain what to tell you. In my reply I was very clear about the domains that I was speaking about.

Using TBN on a dps because of raid damage isn't helpful because during raid wide damage healers need to heal everyone to full, 5K on one person is not helpful. To be clear, raid wide shields in this example are very helpful.

Using a Shield on your MT is not high enough mitigation to be meaningful as there are better ways to mitigate.

The only time TBN is helpful is if someone takes damage they shouldn't have, but it only buys them 5k hp.

Therefore I conclude TBN is not really meant as a utility and is more about personal mitigation as 11k health starts being the difference between living and dying at times when things don't go to plan.

My issue is with the scope of the shielding offered by paladin (and potentially warrior) as compared to what dark can give. Both shields are worthless for single targets and will likely never be used for such because both are very weak. The only exception is when you are shielding yourself on dark knight at which point it is not utility but mitigation.

[MyaValentine]

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so you are saying TBN should be a raid shield? is already good as it's giving a 15s party wide buffed intervention seems a bit too overpowered not even passage is that strong why take an scholar anymore when you can have a drk lol. I do agree that maybe drk needs some raid wide uility but I don't think raid wide TBN is the answer that's just too much, Drk just needs to do more damage have more abilities and mitigation. I think TBN is awesome as it's but the priority should focus on its dps and mitigation not his raid utility people are giving it more credit than it should

[Chrono_Rising]

so you are saying TBN should be a raid shield? is already good as it's giving a 15s party wide buffed intervention seems a bit too overpowered not even passage is that strong why take an scholar anymore when you can have a drk lol. I do agree that maybe drk needs some raid wide uility but I don't think raid wide TBN is the answer that's just too much, Drk just needs to do more damage have more abilities and mitigation. I think TBN is awesome as it's but the priority should focus on its dps and mitigation not his raid utility people are giving it more credit than it should

Never said this. TBN raid wide is way too strong imo, but dark is significantly lacking in party utility. Again I am responding to the person who said TBN is a great utility, it isn't a great utility. It is great personal mitigation.

[Aana]

If you cannot see the difference in being able to shield an entire party vs. shielding one person during aoe I'm not certain what to tell you. In my reply I was very clear about the domains that I was speaking about. My issue is with the scope of the shielding offered by paladin (and potentially warrior) as compared to what dark can give. Both shields are worthless for single targets and will likely never be used for such because both are very weak. The only exception is when you are shielding yourself on dark knight at which point it is not utility but mitigation.

I read fine. The only reason you don't like TBN is because its a 'dps loss' and cite the top drk parses to support that claim of uselessness. As I said, check the top PARTIES. Overall high DPS groups, not the drk that got 20 balance cards fed to him and the only goal was individual max DPS.

I looked at FFLOGs and found the highest rated GROUP that had a drk on the list. (the 1st with a drk was in another language and couldn't read it. So I used the 2nd highest raid group rating that had a drk). Looked at neo exdeath. The very 1st high performing group I found had a 99th % Drk performance in Neo Exdeath in used TBN 11 times. Didn't have to go digging to find some oddball case. 1st thing I could find. TBN used constantly in top tier raiding. Must be because its SOOO bad. Good day sir.

[Chrono_Rising]

I read fine. The only reason you don't like TBN is because its a 'dps loss' and cite the top drk parses to support that claim of uselessness. As I said, check the top PARTIES. Overall high DPS groups, not the drk that got 20 balance cards fed to him and the only goal was individual max DPS.

I looked at FFLOGs and found the highest rated GROUP that had a drk on the list. (the 1st with a drk was in another language and couldn't read it. So I used the 2nd highest raid group rating that had a drk). Looked at neo exdeath. The very 1st high performing group I found had a 99th % Drk performance in Neo Exdeath in used TBN 11 times. Good day sir.

I never claimed anything about your reading. And the parse you mention did this to their OT as you claimed? I'm looking at the second highest they use TBN 5 times and on themselves. Also not looking at personal parses, I'm talking about speed runners who maximize party dps.

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Blackest knight is absolutely raid utility. "Its the mitigation they need". Yes all those OT darks are really using it for mitigation. Please.
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Also you mischaracterize most people who run things for high percentiles as being balance fed.

... The 99% people are having the entire raid work towards feeding that person so they can get a top number. Personal balance cards, working party mechanics around that individuals uptime. Of course they aren't going to use a (slight) dps loss utility when they are going for personal dps records with the party on board for that goal.

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This is simply personal number fluffing. This does happen, and I do agree that they should not be modeled after. However, most people who run for high percentiles know the real way to hit hard is to raise everyone to the ceiling. Its why when you look at 99th percentiles you tend to see them with other 99th percentiles.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

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My apologies, your comment just reminded me of a debate me and a PLD friend of mine had before Stormblood about the two and we were flinging math around so I wanted to chime in when your wording was a bit vague :P

Intervention most definitely trumps TBN on double soak busters. As far as the "free" comment, a couple hilarious wipes waaay back in O4S when we were first progressing show me it also has its negatives, like wanting to use Shelltron as well at the same time and only having enough gauge for one or the other.

[winsock]

I think SE has done a very good job on tanks so far in SB. It's not perfect, drk could benefit from a few tweaks especially. All and all, I've been happy with how they are handling tanks. Despite the sheer volume of tanking changes that occurred in SB, we are quickly approaching a very well balanced set of tanks. The balance forecast is looking much better than it ever did in HW. I am looking forward to the next round of adjustments.