WAR raid "UTILITY" (Tank Balanced achieved?)

[Deathshiro]

That is true but i don't think the difference should be so great when PLD is essentially tied with WAR give or take 50 dps. PLD is no longer as simple as it was but it's not very difficult. I don't want DRK to deal 200 more dps, I just think the difference is a little drastic.

The dps should be:

WAR>DRK>PLD.
PLD has the largest defensive & Utility kit in the game whilst WAR SHOULD have the least yet make up for it in DPS. DRK SHOULD be middle of the road in terms of this.

Now we are at a odd... and honestly stupid balance time now...
WAR has some of the best mitigation, whilst also doing marginally better dps than PLD.
PLD is the 2nd best dps closing in rather close to War, has a super simple rotation(goring -> Royalx2 -> Goring -> holyx5 -> repeat is pathetic easy)
DRK has the worst DPS, Utility, AND Defensives, their niche of parry/magic tank is gone, they've lost their 20s active mitigation (Reprisal) lost their reliable parry/avoidance buff(Dark Dance) while also losing a second DPS combo (Old Delirium)

What do they have to make up for it?... nothing, quite literally they have 0 redeeming qualities.
Played all the tanks in savage 1-4... I see no reason to touch DRK other than my pride.

[Claire_Pendragon]

DRK has the worst DPS, Utility, AND Defensives, their niche of parry/magic tank is gone, they've lost their 20s active mitigation (Reprisal) lost their reliable parry/avoidance buff(Dark Dance) while also losing a second DPS combo (Old Delirium)

What do they have to make up for it?... nothing, quite literally they have 0 redeeming qualities.
Played all the tanks in savage 1-4... I see no reason to touch DRK other than my pride.

Dark Dance was replaced by Anticipation, which is roughly~ on par. The evasion gain was only really useful in speed running 4man dungeons. As the MP lost is a DPS loss.
But DRK did lose Foresight, which was the filler they had when all other CDs were used up. Leaving DRK with just enough CDs for 4man when they had foresight. (It wasnt enough for bosses, which is why reprisal was used as a filler CD.)
We did gain TBN to cover the lost mitigation of foresight (and it is superior for tank busters, but inferior for trash packs)

The lost delirium combo technically was replaced by Soul Eater. And the old Soul Eater was technically replaced by Blood Spiller.
(as the go to filler DPS combo, and the go to burst DPS combo)
but using BS is obviously easier than having to rev up the 1st 2 parts of the soul eater combo, as its treated like a fell cleave.

DRK lost Scourge, but Scourge wasnt made for the purpose of making DRK do more dmg, it was made to make DRKs have something else to look at in the UI.
Now that the UI is improved, SE can make people look at other UI elements, other than just DoTs.
So looking at the blood gauge was the intended replacement.
Too bad looking at the blood gauge is 99% useless.
You see shiny proc, you use shiny proc.
The amount of blood you have, isnt necessary to keep an eye on, except in rare cases where you want to save up enough for 2 BSs in a Trick Attack window, but even then, capping at a 100 is going to be a DPS loss depending on how long ur doing it.
It would ONLY be reasonable to watch it, if the gauge actually capped at 140, so as to let u make judgement calls on its spending.
(I actually feel the same about RDM, they need to raise the max amount u can hold, while capping manification at +50 +50, so as to push RDMs into using procs before comboing, to raise the skill ceiling a bit more.)

[Tegernako]

Dark Dance was replaced by Anticipation, which is roughly~ on par. The evasion gain was only really useful in speed running 4man dungeons. As the MP lost is a DPS loss.

And where do DRK/WAR have room to slot anticipation? It basically does not exist.

The lost delirium combo technically was replaced by Soul Eater. And the old Soul Eater was technically replaced by Blood Spiller.

And the utility from int down was lost. And "old" souleater was replaced by a move you use infrequently in comparison. As I've said elsewhere, my issue is it was taken away but given no replacement.

(as the go to filler DPS combo, and the go to burst DPS combo)
but using BS is obviously easier than having to rev up the 1st 2 parts of the soul eater combo, as its treated like a fell cleave.


Yeah, the thing is it's a "FC" that takes far longer to achieve frequently! And it's dps is still a loss in comparison to PLD/WAR overall

DRK lost Scourge, but Scourge wasnt made for the purpose of making DRK do more dmg, it was made to make DRKs have something else to look at in the UI.

?

snippy snip snip

[Azerhan]

[QUOTE=Claire_Pendragon;4419704]

DRK lost Scourge, but Scourge wasnt made for the purpose of making DRK do more dmg, it was made to make DRKs have something else to look at in the UI.

Scourge, a dot that makes 500 potency over the time. But "it's not for dps". Lel.
A dot is here to do dps even if you have to move. It's that all.

Btw, tanks aren't balanced. At least, PLD is, WAR soon with the new Shake it off, but DRK...
Less dps than other two tank. Less self utilities than other two tanks. Soon, less party utilities than other two tanks.
And I don't mention the gameplay, WAR 60 is way funnier than DRK 70...

I don't understand why. Except the fact that PLD's dps was very too much low during HW, the paradigm PLD MT, WAR OT and DRK the "I'll take this empty chair, m'kay?" was really good.

[Claire_Pendragon]

snippy snip snip

For the most part I agree, though only difference id argue is that you couldnt DA delirium before, so the option to DA or not, "almost" reaches this.
As for anticipation, yeah, it is true i tend to take it off for quite a few endgame fights, dependent on how our group works.

Scourge, a dot that makes 500 potency over the time. But "it's not for dps". Lel.
A dot is here to do dps even if you have to move. It's that all.

Im not saying a DoT doesnt do dmg.
I'm saying the mechanical function of a DoT is to be mechanically different from your other abilities. (all of your abilities, are designed to make sure the enemy dies before you do, thats a given)
123 combo wouldnt feel much different if you just slapped a 4 at the end.
so as to avoid spamming the DoT, its dmg requires a certain amount of time to pass.
but why do you think just about every job used to have DoTs, and coincidentally, most of the "Timers" that jobs had to worry about, became easier or lessened when gauges came out?
Why did gauges only come out now?

PS3 limitations.

They wanted to make differing mechanics to each job, but they also had to fit within the limitations of the UI, and make rotations that werent just a 4th step or 5th step added.

In short, all the DoTs, and short term Buffs, and Buffs that get consumed, were just a different way of portraying "resource bars"
(an example being wrath. 5 stacks is either viewed as 5 combo points, or a bar which upgrades 20%, but is now a bar, which can be affected by increments other than 20% now.)

Im saying DRK lost its DoT, because the DoT was mechanically only there to add a level of complexity.
(Which they failed to recreate with the blood gauge. Regardless if its better or worse, or if the blood gauge isnt damage over time, but damage in a small burst after being built up.)

[Tegernako]

For the most part I agree, though only difference id argue is that you couldnt DA delirium before, so the option to DA or not, "almost" reaches this.
As for anticipation, yeah, it is true i tend to take it off for quite a few endgame fights, dependent on how our group works.
)

True enough.

But your explanation for scourge makes no sense when you think about PLD. Because all the skills the other tanks lost, PLD kept.

[MyaValentine]

True enough.

But your explanation for scourge makes no sense when you think about PLD. Because all the skills the other tanks lost, PLD kept.

pld was the simplest class in the game, all throughout ARR and HW I loved paladin for the eastetic for what it was and what it was supposed to be, if they took anything ANYTHING from pld might aswell leave it a aouto combo class because simply it can't get any simpler. thank fully SB change this I do believe drk needs scourge I think they actually oversimpplified the class too much and now it feels like pld did back in hw.

[Claire_Pendragon]

True enough.

But your explanation for scourge makes no sense when you think about PLD. Because all the skills the other tanks lost, PLD kept.

Yeah, thats true.
While I dont know, I was thinking that the jobs were assigned to different people or groups, and so DRK and WAR were under a "How can we simplify" group, and PLD was under a "How can we make them complex" group.
But thats just speculation of course.

Darkest Night is OP. that's 1 redeeming quality for you.

For self mitigation, 20% Hp is nice, but the MP cost isnt so nice. (Not terrible, since you at least get blood spiller)
For others, its not as nice. Its quantity over quality, in this example, cover being the better. (Since Cover has a longer CD)

But I do agree it has some benefit for being on a shorter CD.

Really? Darkest Night isn't raid utility because "people aren't depending on a 5k shield". Then wtf is every paladin move?

Can we at least stop the blatant hypocrisy? A 5k shield available every 15 sec that can be used on anyone, or a 10k shield on yourself ISNT the vaunted raid utility? If war got that exact same ability Drks would be crying themselves to sleep rocking back and forth saying "War is the darkest night!" Hell people have tried to trot out holmgang as 'raid utility' lately in this very thread.

Blackest knight is absolutely raid utility. "Its the mitigation they need". Yes all those OT darks are really using it for mitigation. Please.

Drk is in a bit of a rough spot atm, but lets not go delusional.

TBN is single target, which does mean its meant for the MT.
If you're the MT, its no longer what most people consider raid utility (though it technically is raid utility)
If you're the OT, its 10% of your HP, which honestly isnt enough to guarantee the safety of a tank.
Any tank buster that can kill a tank, can have high and low RNG attached, to the point where 10% wont be enough, or will be more than enough.

So most of the time it will be wasted, and some of the time it would be useful.
If thats the case, there are more effective ways for that tank to mitigate the dmg.
(also, im not suggesting TBN is useless, just how its not going to be the deciding factor. My group used TBN mixed with Feint on O3S when awareness was down, for example, and when combined, was enough to guarantee the survival of the MT.)

Being on a 15s CD isnt really a real selling point. sounds nice on paper, but which boss throws out that many TBs? either they throw them out with less than 5s apart, or they throw them out MUCH further apart.
(mainly to make sure all tanks can handle it)
Doing it any quicker than that is bad for the DRK.
So I agree its raid utility, and for the same reason i say holmgang is raid utility. It can only make things easier for the group as a whole.

[blindfoldedkaos]

What do they have to make up for it?... nothing, quite literally they have 0 redeeming qualities.
Played all the tanks in savage 1-4... I see no reason to touch DRK other than my pride.

Darkest Night is OP. that's 1 redeeming quality for you.

[Chrono_Rising]

Darkest Night is OP. that's 1 redeeming quality for you.

Except that TBN isn't anything other than the mitigation that dark knight is missing. I think this has been addressed multiple times but here is a quick run down.

Is it really a raid utility? I would say no, other than the occasional mess up, people are not depending on a 5k shield to live through a mechanic.

Does it help make that one person easier to heal? Sure, they need 5k less hp restored, but if you are putting this on anyone other than a tank then we are probably talking raid damage and healers will need to heal like this isn't there since you didn't TBN the rest of the party. Are you putting this on your MT/OT to live? Well not a single tankbuster has pushed me below 10k HP when mitigated properly, so again the 5k shield isn't going to buy alot of time, oh and for tank busters pld does this but better with intervention or cover, while also having one party wide mitigation and 1 party wide shield.

Ok, but TBN is a dps gain for dark knight, right? Nope, its a dps loss on 2 of our 3 combos actions (assuming soul eater), meaning it must be used 3 times in a phase to at best break even.

What is TBN? It is mitigation to balance out the fact that the class lost a cross role defensive ability which was useful for physical autoattacks, an int down ability which could be kept up 100% of the time, a parry boosting ability meant for physical autos which also proced another mitigation, and a 10% damage down (which applied raid wide) and lasted 20 seconds while dealing damage oGCD. This is the dark knight problem, we lost raid utility and a ton of mitigation which forced the need for a massive mitigation overhaul, what we got was one move designed to be used every 15 seconds with a nonexistant hint at raid utility. We do less damage than either of the other options, we mitigate less, and do nothing significant for the party as a whole. We'll see exactly what kind of utility WAR gets in a few days, but if it really is a raid wide shield on a one minute CD then I'm certain dark knight will lose its appeal as a progression tank as well. However, patch notes will tell all.