WAR raid "UTILITY" (Tank Balanced achieved?)

[Synestra]

I'd believe drk will be on a good spot too, maybe give them scourge back will fix the class for many.

I doubt they want to give those "one button press DoT's" back but if they make scourge to combo finisher then it could make a comeback, judging these forums there are DRK's that would like to have 3rd combo so this would please those people as well.

[blindfoldedkaos]

What do they have to make up for it?... nothing, quite literally they have 0 redeeming qualities.
Played all the tanks in savage 1-4... I see no reason to touch DRK other than my pride.

Darkest Night is OP. that's 1 redeeming quality for you.

[Chrono_Rising]

Darkest Night is OP. that's 1 redeeming quality for you.

Except that TBN isn't anything other than the mitigation that dark knight is missing. I think this has been addressed multiple times but here is a quick run down.

Is it really a raid utility? I would say no, other than the occasional mess up, people are not depending on a 5k shield to live through a mechanic.

Does it help make that one person easier to heal? Sure, they need 5k less hp restored, but if you are putting this on anyone other than a tank then we are probably talking raid damage and healers will need to heal like this isn't there since you didn't TBN the rest of the party. Are you putting this on your MT/OT to live? Well not a single tankbuster has pushed me below 10k HP when mitigated properly, so again the 5k shield isn't going to buy alot of time, oh and for tank busters pld does this but better with intervention or cover, while also having one party wide mitigation and 1 party wide shield.

Ok, but TBN is a dps gain for dark knight, right? Nope, its a dps loss on 2 of our 3 combos actions (assuming soul eater), meaning it must be used 3 times in a phase to at best break even.

What is TBN? It is mitigation to balance out the fact that the class lost a cross role defensive ability which was useful for physical autoattacks, an int down ability which could be kept up 100% of the time, a parry boosting ability meant for physical autos which also proced another mitigation, and a 10% damage down (which applied raid wide) and lasted 20 seconds while dealing damage oGCD. This is the dark knight problem, we lost raid utility and a ton of mitigation which forced the need for a massive mitigation overhaul, what we got was one move designed to be used every 15 seconds with a nonexistant hint at raid utility. We do less damage than either of the other options, we mitigate less, and do nothing significant for the party as a whole. We'll see exactly what kind of utility WAR gets in a few days, but if it really is a raid wide shield on a one minute CD then I'm certain dark knight will lose its appeal as a progression tank as well. However, patch notes will tell all.

[Aana]

Except that TBN isn't anything other than the mitigation that dark knight is missing. I think this has been addressed multiple times but here is a quick run down.

Is it really a raid utility?
I would say no, other than the occasional mess up, people are not depending on a 5k shield to live through a mechanic.

Really? Darkest Night isn't raid utility because "people aren't depending on a 5k shield". Then wtf is every paladin move?

Can we at least stop the blatant hypocrisy? A 5k shield available every 15 sec that can be used on anyone, or a 10k shield on yourself ISNT the vaunted raid utility? If war got that exact same ability Drks would be crying themselves to sleep rocking back and forth saying "War is the darkest night!" Hell people have tried to trot out holmgang as 'raid utility' lately in this very thread.

Blackest knight is absolutely raid utility. "Its the mitigation they need". Yes all those OT darks are really using it for mitigation. Please.

Drk is in a bit of a rough spot atm, but lets not go delusional.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

oh and for tank busters pld does this but better with intervention or cover, while also having one party wide mitigation and 1 party wide shield.

Intervention is actually weaker than Blackest night on its own unless the tank buster is hitting for astronomically high damage or you intentionally burn Rampart/Sentinel as OT (which you'd only really do if it's a double soak buster like twin Bolt, Ahk Morn or Double Attack), due to the fact Intervention is subjected to decreasing multiplicative returns when combined with CDs your co-tank is using, as opposed to TBN being a straight shield

For example, if a tank buster is going to hit for 50k, and your co-tank uses a 30% damage reduction CD, intervention will only reduce 3.5k damage (50k * 0.7 * 0.9), while Blackest Night will still reduce that 5k damage regardless of what CD is used. For Intervention to be stronger than Blackest Night, the TB would need to do at least 71k damage in that scenario, and Intervention becomes even weaker the more CDs your co-tank stacks, or if they're riding tank stance.

Like if you had a super defensive WAR who stacked IB + vengeance for that 50k tank buster, intervention would then only mitigate 2.8K damage. In this scenario, The TB would need to do 90k damage before Intervention would break even with TBN.

I'm not saying TBN is better in all situations (Intervention on double soak tank busters is godly), but it literally comes down to how much damage is being received which is better. Cover is downright amazing though, since on top of the flat 20%, you can then also give that PLD TBN.

I will agree however that TBN is pretty clearly designed to fill in the gap left by the skill overhaul of tanks in SB. Honestly they should just change Dark Mind to all damage and raise it's base % a bit and that would leave DRK in a slightly better spot mitigation wise..

I would also like to see DRK have a defensive use of their Blood Gauge, or basically giving DRK a Shelltron equivalent that they could use.

[Claire_Pendragon]

True enough.

But your explanation for scourge makes no sense when you think about PLD. Because all the skills the other tanks lost, PLD kept.

Yeah, thats true.
While I dont know, I was thinking that the jobs were assigned to different people or groups, and so DRK and WAR were under a "How can we simplify" group, and PLD was under a "How can we make them complex" group.
But thats just speculation of course.

Darkest Night is OP. that's 1 redeeming quality for you.

For self mitigation, 20% Hp is nice, but the MP cost isnt so nice. (Not terrible, since you at least get blood spiller)
For others, its not as nice. Its quantity over quality, in this example, cover being the better. (Since Cover has a longer CD)

But I do agree it has some benefit for being on a shorter CD.

Really? Darkest Night isn't raid utility because "people aren't depending on a 5k shield". Then wtf is every paladin move?

Can we at least stop the blatant hypocrisy? A 5k shield available every 15 sec that can be used on anyone, or a 10k shield on yourself ISNT the vaunted raid utility? If war got that exact same ability Drks would be crying themselves to sleep rocking back and forth saying "War is the darkest night!" Hell people have tried to trot out holmgang as 'raid utility' lately in this very thread.

Blackest knight is absolutely raid utility. "Its the mitigation they need". Yes all those OT darks are really using it for mitigation. Please.

Drk is in a bit of a rough spot atm, but lets not go delusional.

TBN is single target, which does mean its meant for the MT.
If you're the MT, its no longer what most people consider raid utility (though it technically is raid utility)
If you're the OT, its 10% of your HP, which honestly isnt enough to guarantee the safety of a tank.
Any tank buster that can kill a tank, can have high and low RNG attached, to the point where 10% wont be enough, or will be more than enough.

So most of the time it will be wasted, and some of the time it would be useful.
If thats the case, there are more effective ways for that tank to mitigate the dmg.
(also, im not suggesting TBN is useless, just how its not going to be the deciding factor. My group used TBN mixed with Feint on O3S when awareness was down, for example, and when combined, was enough to guarantee the survival of the MT.)

Being on a 15s CD isnt really a real selling point. sounds nice on paper, but which boss throws out that many TBs? either they throw them out with less than 5s apart, or they throw them out MUCH further apart.
(mainly to make sure all tanks can handle it)
Doing it any quicker than that is bad for the DRK.
So I agree its raid utility, and for the same reason i say holmgang is raid utility. It can only make things easier for the group as a whole.

[Chrono_Rising]

Really? Darkest Night isn't raid utility because "people aren't depending on a 5k shield". Then wtf is every paladin move?

Snip

Can we at least stop the blatant hypocrisy? A 5k shield available every 15 sec that can be used on anyone, or a 10k shield on yourself ISNT the vaunted raid utility?

Sure, lets stop the hypocrisy. If mitigating myself is raid utility then I don't understand why shaking off a debuff wouldn't be considered utility. It might be used once every other tier only on Sundays between 6:00 and 6:01 pm if it is a full moon, but by this logic hey its there so its utility. So I assume you point hinges on the 5k shield on another member. Ok, so the 5k on another person, is it a useful utility, or is it more like clemency is a utility? Its there, but should it actually be used? The answer is no not really. As for this:

Blackest knight is absolutely raid utility. "Its the mitigation they need". Yes all those OT darks are really using it for mitigation. Please.

Drk is in a bit of a rough spot atm, but lets not go delusional.

Well lets look at top dark knight parses, how often are they using their shield on their MT as an OT. Almost 0. Is it because the "utility" is a dps loss in dps stance outside buff windows? Yes, it is or at least the numbers are so close to being a loss or a break even that its usually better spent on dark arts to increase dps.

Where as for paladin we have a raid shield which mitigates 10% of hp and is not a dps loss for the paladin to put up. You also have PoA but yes this comes at a dps loss, but it mitigates damage for everyone.

Finally this:

If war got that exact same ability Drks would be crying themselves to sleep rocking back and forth saying "War is the darkest night!"

You have this already, its called inner beast, and a oGCD free heal called equilibrium, it is a dps loss but hey it’s there right? It isn't every 15 seconds, but the WAR mitigation kit is really well designed and doesn't really need a every 15 second mitigation. This is my point, sure technically TBN is utility, but my point in replying to the post is that it isn’t nearly as great as it is made out to be and most of the time is personal mitigation. Much like warrior won’t want to use inner beast or equilibrium in heal form, most dark knights in a raid won’t want to use tbn for anything other than self mitigation, and even then they will try to minimize its use outside of grit.

[Chrono_Rising]

Snip

Sorry, I probably wasn't clear. I meant that a paladin could take the hit of a tank buster for their MT, and twin bolts, double attack and others are exactly what I had in mind when I posted about intervention. So yes, I was comparing tbn and those moves exactly when taking high hitting tank busters using intervention. In particular if you wanted to pair a mitigation with TBN for a tank buster then you could swap out TBN for intervention and likely mitigate as much damage as you would have with TBN except without the mana cost. Thanks for the clarifications.

In addition, intervention is "free" as far as a paladins dps is concerned, where as TBN can be rather costly.

[Awful]

I've been a Drk main since HW and the start of SB and i'm slowly switching to War and leveling it up by Weds so I can raid with my friends and just live the War life. Drk needs some attention to adequately come to terms with Pld and War and it's just not getting it so with the changes to Shake it Off and Wars super fun play style Drks just not fun anymore.

It's HW allover again sadly where Drk/War combo was the best and now nothings really changed except it's Pld/War with Drk being the awkward love child that SE can't decide how to manage which is real disappointing honestly, I still love Drk but i'm already having a blast with War punching people in the face and charging their faces with my bloody axe.

I'll go back to Drk later down the road but it's time to wreck faces and scream with my war face at everything and beat them with my Midlander fists.

[Claire_Pendragon]

If mitigating myself is raid utility then I don't understand why shaking off a debuff wouldn't be considered utility.

It technically IS utility. As it can be something to help u skip mechanics etc. (if it were done right, which is the main issue, it ended up not really being done correctly)
But its also not the "utility" that most people mean when they say "Utility". Which is the next issue. People usually mean utility in a different way, which is a bit vague, and has a lot of exceptions.

Well lets look at top dark knight parses, how often are they using their shield on their MT as an OT. Almost 0. Is it because the "utility" is a dps loss in dps stance outside buff windows? Yes, it is or at least the numbers are so close to being a loss or a break even that its usually better spent on dark arts to increase dps.

It's a DPS loss, because, from the creators perspective, if it werent, ppl would be trying to keep TBN on CD as much as possible, so as to keep spamming BS, and if so, that would effect its usefulness if its on CD when a tank buster is going off. (Similar to how plunge might be on CD, as a DRK wants to use it for DPS< but then gets knocked back, unable to stop themselves from falling off an edge.)
(But yeah, MP holds a greater value than Blood in most cases, with exceptions. Thats one of the reasons why you want to use delirium with Blood Weapon, instead of BS

Where as for paladin we have a raid shield which mitigates 10% of damage and is not a dps loss for the paladin to put up. You also have PoA but yes this comes at a dps loss, but it mitigates damage for everyone.

Bolded the part about hitting everyone, as thats the key bonus for PLD.

You have this already, its called inner beast, and a oGCD free heal called equilibrium. It isn't every 15 seconds, but the WAR mitigation kit is really well designed and doesn't really need a every 15 second mitigation.

IB being a GCD, and more of a DPS loss than TBN, since TBN tries to almost refund the DPS with blood. Plus the real issue is that IB doesnt target a party member.
But dont get me wrong, I agree with the usefulness of IB as well. Its amazing. I would consider a WAR for a MT over DRK, in HW, solely for inner beast, oGCD stance dancing, storms eye/path, and holmgang. As those abilities can make ur life as a healer far easier, and give some slashing dmg in case u didnt have a NIN (now SAM too)

Personally rethinking some things, I think TBN needs to becomes at least 15% mitigation for allies, to (1) make sure its actually making a difference, (2) make it harder to break the shield, (3) and to then make it fair for a DPS increase to keep TBN on CD. DRK almost has enough CDs for tank busters w/o it, so honestly a DRK can simply learn to just not use it for 15s, if they know a TB is about to pop in less time.
If BS actually becomes worth while, or TBN grants more blood, or even the MP of a syphon strike, that also would put it into a DPS increase. This would raise the skill level of DRK too.
It would be seen as a major raid utility job, but it would still be good enough.