WAR raid "UTILITY" (Tank Balanced achieved?)

[blindfoldedkaos]

What do they have to make up for it?... nothing, quite literally they have 0 redeeming qualities.
Played all the tanks in savage 1-4... I see no reason to touch DRK other than my pride.

Darkest Night is OP. that's 1 redeeming quality for you.

[Chrono_Rising]

Darkest Night is OP. that's 1 redeeming quality for you.

Except that TBN isn't anything other than the mitigation that dark knight is missing. I think this has been addressed multiple times but here is a quick run down.

Is it really a raid utility? I would say no, other than the occasional mess up, people are not depending on a 5k shield to live through a mechanic.

Does it help make that one person easier to heal? Sure, they need 5k less hp restored, but if you are putting this on anyone other than a tank then we are probably talking raid damage and healers will need to heal like this isn't there since you didn't TBN the rest of the party. Are you putting this on your MT/OT to live? Well not a single tankbuster has pushed me below 10k HP when mitigated properly, so again the 5k shield isn't going to buy alot of time, oh and for tank busters pld does this but better with intervention or cover, while also having one party wide mitigation and 1 party wide shield.

Ok, but TBN is a dps gain for dark knight, right? Nope, its a dps loss on 2 of our 3 combos actions (assuming soul eater), meaning it must be used 3 times in a phase to at best break even.

What is TBN? It is mitigation to balance out the fact that the class lost a cross role defensive ability which was useful for physical autoattacks, an int down ability which could be kept up 100% of the time, a parry boosting ability meant for physical autos which also proced another mitigation, and a 10% damage down (which applied raid wide) and lasted 20 seconds while dealing damage oGCD. This is the dark knight problem, we lost raid utility and a ton of mitigation which forced the need for a massive mitigation overhaul, what we got was one move designed to be used every 15 seconds with a nonexistant hint at raid utility. We do less damage than either of the other options, we mitigate less, and do nothing significant for the party as a whole. We'll see exactly what kind of utility WAR gets in a few days, but if it really is a raid wide shield on a one minute CD then I'm certain dark knight will lose its appeal as a progression tank as well. However, patch notes will tell all.

[Aana]

Except that TBN isn't anything other than the mitigation that dark knight is missing. I think this has been addressed multiple times but here is a quick run down.

Is it really a raid utility?
I would say no, other than the occasional mess up, people are not depending on a 5k shield to live through a mechanic.

Really? Darkest Night isn't raid utility because "people aren't depending on a 5k shield". Then wtf is every paladin move?

Can we at least stop the blatant hypocrisy? A 5k shield available every 15 sec that can be used on anyone, or a 10k shield on yourself ISNT the vaunted raid utility? If war got that exact same ability Drks would be crying themselves to sleep rocking back and forth saying "War is the darkest night!" Hell people have tried to trot out holmgang as 'raid utility' lately in this very thread.

Blackest knight is absolutely raid utility. "Its the mitigation they need". Yes all those OT darks are really using it for mitigation. Please.

Drk is in a bit of a rough spot atm, but lets not go delusional.

[Chrono_Rising]

Really? Darkest Night isn't raid utility because "people aren't depending on a 5k shield". Then wtf is every paladin move?

Snip

Can we at least stop the blatant hypocrisy? A 5k shield available every 15 sec that can be used on anyone, or a 10k shield on yourself ISNT the vaunted raid utility?

Sure, lets stop the hypocrisy. If mitigating myself is raid utility then I don't understand why shaking off a debuff wouldn't be considered utility. It might be used once every other tier only on Sundays between 6:00 and 6:01 pm if it is a full moon, but by this logic hey its there so its utility. So I assume you point hinges on the 5k shield on another member. Ok, so the 5k on another person, is it a useful utility, or is it more like clemency is a utility? Its there, but should it actually be used? The answer is no not really. As for this:

Blackest knight is absolutely raid utility. "Its the mitigation they need". Yes all those OT darks are really using it for mitigation. Please.

Drk is in a bit of a rough spot atm, but lets not go delusional.

Well lets look at top dark knight parses, how often are they using their shield on their MT as an OT. Almost 0. Is it because the "utility" is a dps loss in dps stance outside buff windows? Yes, it is or at least the numbers are so close to being a loss or a break even that its usually better spent on dark arts to increase dps.

Where as for paladin we have a raid shield which mitigates 10% of hp and is not a dps loss for the paladin to put up. You also have PoA but yes this comes at a dps loss, but it mitigates damage for everyone.

Finally this:

If war got that exact same ability Drks would be crying themselves to sleep rocking back and forth saying "War is the darkest night!"

You have this already, its called inner beast, and a oGCD free heal called equilibrium, it is a dps loss but hey it’s there right? It isn't every 15 seconds, but the WAR mitigation kit is really well designed and doesn't really need a every 15 second mitigation. This is my point, sure technically TBN is utility, but my point in replying to the post is that it isn’t nearly as great as it is made out to be and most of the time is personal mitigation. Much like warrior won’t want to use inner beast or equilibrium in heal form, most dark knights in a raid won’t want to use tbn for anything other than self mitigation, and even then they will try to minimize its use outside of grit.

[Claire_Pendragon]

If mitigating myself is raid utility then I don't understand why shaking off a debuff wouldn't be considered utility.

It technically IS utility. As it can be something to help u skip mechanics etc. (if it were done right, which is the main issue, it ended up not really being done correctly)
But its also not the "utility" that most people mean when they say "Utility". Which is the next issue. People usually mean utility in a different way, which is a bit vague, and has a lot of exceptions.

Well lets look at top dark knight parses, how often are they using their shield on their MT as an OT. Almost 0. Is it because the "utility" is a dps loss in dps stance outside buff windows? Yes, it is or at least the numbers are so close to being a loss or a break even that its usually better spent on dark arts to increase dps.

It's a DPS loss, because, from the creators perspective, if it werent, ppl would be trying to keep TBN on CD as much as possible, so as to keep spamming BS, and if so, that would effect its usefulness if its on CD when a tank buster is going off. (Similar to how plunge might be on CD, as a DRK wants to use it for DPS< but then gets knocked back, unable to stop themselves from falling off an edge.)
(But yeah, MP holds a greater value than Blood in most cases, with exceptions. Thats one of the reasons why you want to use delirium with Blood Weapon, instead of BS

Where as for paladin we have a raid shield which mitigates 10% of damage and is not a dps loss for the paladin to put up. You also have PoA but yes this comes at a dps loss, but it mitigates damage for everyone.

Bolded the part about hitting everyone, as thats the key bonus for PLD.

You have this already, its called inner beast, and a oGCD free heal called equilibrium. It isn't every 15 seconds, but the WAR mitigation kit is really well designed and doesn't really need a every 15 second mitigation.

IB being a GCD, and more of a DPS loss than TBN, since TBN tries to almost refund the DPS with blood. Plus the real issue is that IB doesnt target a party member.
But dont get me wrong, I agree with the usefulness of IB as well. Its amazing. I would consider a WAR for a MT over DRK, in HW, solely for inner beast, oGCD stance dancing, storms eye/path, and holmgang. As those abilities can make ur life as a healer far easier, and give some slashing dmg in case u didnt have a NIN (now SAM too)

Personally rethinking some things, I think TBN needs to becomes at least 15% mitigation for allies, to (1) make sure its actually making a difference, (2) make it harder to break the shield, (3) and to then make it fair for a DPS increase to keep TBN on CD. DRK almost has enough CDs for tank busters w/o it, so honestly a DRK can simply learn to just not use it for 15s, if they know a TB is about to pop in less time.
If BS actually becomes worth while, or TBN grants more blood, or even the MP of a syphon strike, that also would put it into a DPS increase. This would raise the skill level of DRK too.
It would be seen as a major raid utility job, but it would still be good enough.

[Aana]

Snip

The hypocrisy is whining that TBN 'isn't raid utility' because a shield 'doesn't help people much' while in the same breath whining about other tanks having shields for other people being to much raid utility.

You don't get it both ways. Shielding party members either is, or is not raid utility. If it is, then drk has some, and then move along to discussing the power and nuances of those abilities and the entire kit of the job itself. If it isn't, then you cant call party mitigation of any kind raid utility because they do the same thing. Reducing damage taken or giving shields are functionally the same use. If the fact that its single target means as, you put it, 'is for the MT and therefore not utility' then neither is cover or intervention.

Directly protecting other members of your party with mitigation for very low or zero costs cant be a worthless party trick on drk but absurdly OP because its on war or pld. Pick one.

[Claire_Pendragon]

snip

Im confused who you're addressing with this. You quoted my post, when I was in agreement with it being utility, but then are saying something someone else said, as if the statements were directly related to eachother.

[Chrono_Rising]

The hypocrisy is whining that TBN 'isn't raid utility' because a shield 'doesn't help people much' while in the same breath whining about other tanks having shields for other people being to much raid utility.

You don't get it both ways. Shielding party members either is, or is not raid utility. If it is, then drk has some, and then move along to discussing the power and nuances of those abilities and the entire kit of the job itself. If it isn't, then you cant call party mitigation of any kind raid utility because they do the same thing. Reducing damage taken or giving shields are functionally the same use. If the fact that its single target means as, you put it, 'is for the MT and therefore not utility' then neither is cover or intervention.

Directly protecting other members of your party with mitigation for very low or zero costs cant be a worthless party trick on drk but absurdly OP because its on war or pld. Pick one.

If you cannot see the difference in being able to shield an entire party vs. shielding one person during aoe I'm not certain what to tell you. In my reply I was very clear about the domains that I was speaking about.

Using TBN on a dps because of raid damage isn't helpful because during raid wide damage healers need to heal everyone to full, 5K on one person is not helpful. To be clear, raid wide shields in this example are very helpful.

Using a Shield on your MT is not high enough mitigation to be meaningful as there are better ways to mitigate.

The only time TBN is helpful is if someone takes damage they shouldn't have, but it only buys them 5k hp.

Therefore I conclude TBN is not really meant as a utility and is more about personal mitigation as 11k health starts being the difference between living and dying at times when things don't go to plan.

My issue is with the scope of the shielding offered by paladin (and potentially warrior) as compared to what dark can give. Both shields are worthless for single targets and will likely never be used for such because both are very weak. The only exception is when you are shielding yourself on dark knight at which point it is not utility but mitigation.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

oh and for tank busters pld does this but better with intervention or cover, while also having one party wide mitigation and 1 party wide shield.

Intervention is actually weaker than Blackest night on its own unless the tank buster is hitting for astronomically high damage or you intentionally burn Rampart/Sentinel as OT (which you'd only really do if it's a double soak buster like twin Bolt, Ahk Morn or Double Attack), due to the fact Intervention is subjected to decreasing multiplicative returns when combined with CDs your co-tank is using, as opposed to TBN being a straight shield

For example, if a tank buster is going to hit for 50k, and your co-tank uses a 30% damage reduction CD, intervention will only reduce 3.5k damage (50k * 0.7 * 0.9), while Blackest Night will still reduce that 5k damage regardless of what CD is used. For Intervention to be stronger than Blackest Night, the TB would need to do at least 71k damage in that scenario, and Intervention becomes even weaker the more CDs your co-tank stacks, or if they're riding tank stance.

Like if you had a super defensive WAR who stacked IB + vengeance for that 50k tank buster, intervention would then only mitigate 2.8K damage. In this scenario, The TB would need to do 90k damage before Intervention would break even with TBN.

I'm not saying TBN is better in all situations (Intervention on double soak tank busters is godly), but it literally comes down to how much damage is being received which is better. Cover is downright amazing though, since on top of the flat 20%, you can then also give that PLD TBN.

I will agree however that TBN is pretty clearly designed to fill in the gap left by the skill overhaul of tanks in SB. Honestly they should just change Dark Mind to all damage and raise it's base % a bit and that would leave DRK in a slightly better spot mitigation wise..

I would also like to see DRK have a defensive use of their Blood Gauge, or basically giving DRK a Shelltron equivalent that they could use.

[Chrono_Rising]

Snip

Sorry, I probably wasn't clear. I meant that a paladin could take the hit of a tank buster for their MT, and twin bolts, double attack and others are exactly what I had in mind when I posted about intervention. So yes, I was comparing tbn and those moves exactly when taking high hitting tank busters using intervention. In particular if you wanted to pair a mitigation with TBN for a tank buster then you could swap out TBN for intervention and likely mitigate as much damage as you would have with TBN except without the mana cost. Thanks for the clarifications.

In addition, intervention is "free" as far as a paladins dps is concerned, where as TBN can be rather costly.