Tips on being a mentor but not sounding bossy

[Vandril]

I don't know who Vandril is

Hello. I believe they were referring to my past post in this thread. In case you're curious, let me go quote myself so you can click for the source instead of searching for it...

As for how to approach people as a source of help, I agree with this thread's general sentiment of being polite. And there are some general tricks in wording that can help avoid triggering people:

I disagree that wording is the problem.

That's exactly it.

You're completely correct on this: the problem isn't wording, it's that people tend to add their own meaning to received messages. Rather, wording is the viable solution. You can't make people take what is said literally or without adding tone to the message. That's what people do; it's how people work. It's part of human psychology. This will not change on a large scale anytime soon. The next best thing - the viable solution - is to reduce ambiguity of given statements as much as possible to minimize the number of negative ways it can be interpreted. And you do this with wording.

I don't believe anyone is trying to say that the problem is that we all need to word our advice perfectly. It seems like a given that the problem is how people take those words. I can't imagine we'd be talking about how to solve a problem that we didn't know existed because we didn't know what the problem was and, instead, confused the solution we came up with to solve the problem we didn't know about before we came up with its solution with the problem itself. o.O

(Yes, that last sentence is very confusing. But that's the twisted logic one would have to follow to be arguing that the solution of wording things in a certain way is the problem.)

Another way to frame this entire situation is in a Problem, Cause, Solution format.

Problem: Players tend to take advice given with good intention as aggressive criticism.
Cause: These players incorrectly interpreted the intention of the advice.
Solution: Careful wording to reduce the ambiguity of the advice's intention.

I think we can all agree with the Problem, Cause, Solution above. As the giver of advice, the only way we effect the situation is by giving our advice, and so the only part of the situation we have control over and can change is our advice itself. Of course, the ideal would be to not have the problem to begin with, but that's simply not the case - we do have the problem and it's cause. All we can do is attempt a solution.

From what I'm seeing in this article much of the discussion has been centered on "how to word it". But I will say that it is not the priority at all.

I respectfully disagree.

[Miste]

That's what people do; it's how people work. It's part of human psychology. This will not change on a large scale anytime soon.

I took some psychology as well so I already know this. It being human nature doesn't mean you cannot advocate or spread the message around that people should not be hostile immediately when confronted with someone making a suggestion or asking them a question. I mean humans are slowly changing and evolving for better or worse so eventually people might come to think differently. So I mean my solution might not be fully obtainable at the moment, but why not advocate it anyway?

I never said your solution isn't a viable one I am just advocating that others also should be nicer and not immediately start harassing someone if posed with a sentence that isn't the best worded possible. So I am confused why you think you need to point that out. There can be two things here not just one.

There is a solution you can try to use which is word things better which I've said I try to do and I use soft words like in your explanation as well (sadly it rarely works for me), but there is also advocating that others should not jump to conclusions and start throwing insults too. I mean these two things can both exist at the same time so I don't understand why argue about it and/or tell me it is pointless to advocate people be nicer to each other?

Solution: Careful wording to reduce the ambiguity of the advice's intention.

In my experience this rarely works anyway unfortunately. That is why I advocate people should just ask the person to clarify their intentions instead of jumping to harassment. Since the solution doesn't really work for me it is natural I might think of some other solution. I mean the way you put it here seems like you believe there is only one solution, but there isn't just one...there are many solutions even if others are not easily obtainable.

[Vandril]

I mean the way you put it here seems like you believe there is only one solution, but there isn't just one...there are many solutions even if others are not easily obtainable.

I think we're talking two different types of solutions, from the sound of it. I'm talking immediate, short term solutions, and it looks to me like you're talking extremely long term. As far as short term solutions to this problem go, there really is only one solution that I'm aware of: careful wording. As I said before, just about the only aspect of the problem we're in control of is the words we use and whether we use words at all; the latter avoids the problem entirely but doesn't really solve it. However, if you're talking playing the long game with openly advocating that people not jump the gun and make assumptions about people's intentions, then I completely agree with you. If enough people did so, in the long term, there would be changes.

When I say that careful wording is the only viable solution, I mean so within the scope of the thread. While a long term solution is valuable and should be pursued, it won't help now or anytime soon. Since the topic of the thread is how to be a mentor without sounding bossy, presumably to avoid causing a negative reaction from the person being helped, it's safe to say that a long term solution isn't what's being asked for. Outside a limited scope of time, though, the long term solution is the better.

Ideally, good mentors will follow through with both solutions.

[Miste]

However, if you're talking playing the long game with openly advocating that people not jump the gun and make assumptions about people's intentions, then I completely agree with you. If enough people did so, in the long term, there would be changes.

I said that point multiple times D:

I guess there was some confusion or you missed it.

Even if the thread isn't really looking for long term it still is a good thing to mention that it isn't only one side of this that needs to rethink their approach. It takes at least two people to have a conversation so all the responsibility isn't only on the person initiating it to be mindful. The person on receiving end should be as well. Long term or not respect goes both ways.

I also wanted to point out that people should be aware that even if they change how they word things to softer speech it doesn't mean they won't get backlash anymore. My personal experience taught me quickly that no matter how softly you try to word things it can still result in bad backlash and insults from the other person. I also feel like some people consider all the fault of such an encounter lies with the person who initiated the dialogue...which is completely false.

What I envisioned when I said to "be" of help, was almost akin to acting. But in honest action instead of fake acting. A natural occurrence of the factors involved, no more, no less. "Act" yourself, instead of "be" yourself. By injecting dynamism and showing, not telling, the point, you are more likely to overall succeed in moving their position and actions instead by pure words alone. If they see the party suffering they are more likely to think and do something about it than if they were told about the effects, or even worse, persuaded to see it that way. It means sometimes you must even play along, fool around with them, joke alongside with them, even try their standpoint. But no more, no less, than as if naturally occurring. You are not the efficiency police. Nor a mentor. Just another player who may or may not happen to share an experience with them.

I'm sorry, but like I said initially I think you've misunderstood what I was saying. I have no idea what your response has to do with what I said. Efficiency police? I don't do that...I never said I do that? Sorry I just don't know what you are trying to tell me.

Someone potentially getting upset is a poor reason to withhold advice. We would have far less players wearing the wrong equipment or not using skills properly if more people just spoke up.

I feel bad for not speaking up, but I am also sick and tired of getting insults flung at me for it too. I mean no one should have to deal with harassment and sometimes I don't feel like being abused even if it is just with words. There is enough reasons to get depressed sometimes without adding more; so if only it didn't keep happening I would be happy to speak up more often to help (I used to help way way more often, but after so much I have eventually come to more often keep my mouth shut)....as it stands I have been harassed for pretty much anything you can think of.

Asked a PLD politely to use Shield Oath in a leveling dungeon because he had no oath on and couldn't hold hate.
Got all sorts of swears flung at me then they quit the dungeon then the rest of the party blamed me for making us lose the tank.

Reminded an AST politely that they forgot their sect.
Got harassed and they kept making fun of me for my glamour for the next half of the run and about any thing they consider bad about how I play even though nothing was going wrong until I got fed up and left.

Reminded a NIN they forgot their poison.
Got harassed.

Politely mentioned to a SMN (who was only using Shadow Flare and Ruin II exclusively) that Bio, Bio II, and Miasma are also great spells and fun to use.
Also mentioned to that SMN about the cannons in Stone Vigil HM after the fight that if they get this dungeon again use the cannons to hit the boss. (I saw they weren't using them)
Got harassed with a nice "f*** off"

Tried to politely mention to a NIN in The Vault who was using an i100 weapon where they could get a better one if they wanted after we finish the dungeon.
Got called an "elitist b****" by the healer. (Even though the NIN actually thanked me for the advice after).

This is only a few of them, there is plenty more.

Maybe I am just insanely unlucky I don't know, but this is depressing and has jaded me. I get that there are bad apples everywhere, but you cannot blame a mentor who rarely speaks up without being asked...considering what can happen if they do. I've seen many people comment that they don't want unsolicited advice and it seems to be in my case the people I run into the most and it sets them off to do so.

I am not saying mentors shouldn't ever speak up, if they are fine with the reactions they get, I am just saying you cannot really blame the silent ones...you never know what they went through :/

I mean I like doing mentor roulette because it is fun to play different jobs for it and you never know what content you are going to get, but there is only so much someone can take and if it is better to get the content done for the group and avoid verbal abuse, vote kicks, people leaving, party disbanding then I may do that instead of saying anything. After all mentor player or not this game is supposed to be entertainment and it is supposed to fun first and foremost. Insults being thrown at you doesn't really fall into those categories.

I am not saying you blame mentors who don't speak up, but I just wanted to point out why some may withhold advice unless specifically asked for some.

[Raqrie_Tohka]

This is only a few of them, there is plenty more.

Hmm don't take it personally but even if your intentions were probably reasonable, what they perceived, and what I think they perceived if I tentatively try to see it from their theoretical standpoint, is that reminding them about rotations is being the efficiency police.

I don't know how to put something as delicate as this thought I'm trying to express, into reasonable words, forgive me, but ... hmm, try to "empathize"? Er, to be there as help, for them, as a person, than to "offer" help, as a transaction? No that didn't come out right either. I'll come back when I've actually got it straightened out. Ugh, at least one point I want to bring up is, if they think your motive is to be the efficiency police, then no matter how well worded an advice is, they will encounter it with hostility. So sometimes the right thing to do in a conversation is just to "listen" ... if that'll be the one takeaway I would will myself to remember from this thread. There are many intrinsic details to the art of conversation but I think "to listen" is as simplest and straightforward as it could possibly get. To "listen" not just to words, but to the situation, to them, both in their actions and as a whole, to the tone and atmosphere, or if nothing, just to silence, for silence is golden. And humbling.

At any rate, I'd rather mentors be viewed as "friends for (free) hire" than "efficiency police" anyday.

[Miste]

is that reminding them about rotations is being the efficiency police.

My intentions were to help. If those people perceive incorrectly without asking me for clarification then that is their own fault, not mine. They made an assumption that was incorrect and started harassing me for their own mistake instead of simply asking me what my intention was. Like I said before it takes at least two people to have a conversation; it does not only rest upon my shoulders to make sure the situation stays respectful.

So sometimes the right thing to do in a conversation is just to "listen"

You want me to "listen" to insults? Sorry, but this makes no sense. Every one of those scenarios the players just threw insults at me...why would anyone "listen" to that?

Sorry, but I don't agree with your opinions on this nor would I likely ever agree.

You do not have to use name calling, insults, or swearing to set an aggressive tone in text.

You need to use them if you want to 100% show you are trying to set an aggressive tone. Otherwise the other person has no idea what "tone" you are using since they cannot hear you. Like I said before you cannot tell a person's tone through text if they use very neutral common words. Just using "you" doesn't mean someone is being hostile on purpose. "You" is a common and highly used English word, people use it all the time. Instead of assuming a person could just ask the other person's intention.

Not everyone knows about "soft language". I would say most people don't. They likely just talk to people like they would to casual acquaintances, simple but polite with no insults, name calling, or swearing. Unless you've done college level English I would say most people don't know these concepts and especially in an online game where there may be younger players.

So again I advocate not making assumptions.

[TaleraRistain]

You need to use them if you want to 100% show you are trying to set an aggressive tone. Otherwise the other person has no idea what "tone" you are using since they cannot hear you. Like I said before you cannot tell a person's tone through text if they use very neutral common words. Just using "you" doesn't mean someone is being hostile on purpose. "You" is a common and highly used English word, people use it all the time. Instead of assuming a person could just ask the other person's intention.

Honestly, there's no point in arguing with you about this any longer. Despite that fact that multiple people have told you that you can convey tone with word choice and provided examples, you brush that off entirely because it doesn't fit your particular worldview. I imagine you would be just as resistant to the idea that even when you can set tone, such as a face to face conversation, word choice is still important because even with a polite tone, confrontational words and phrases are still confrontational words and phrases.

[Raqrie_Tohka]

I respectfully disagree.

I respect your disagreement. But I am not wholly persuaded by it. As I said, there are those kinds of people who will not be persuaded by words, and there are also those who are better at words than you, or would like to use words the wrong way, aka. word puzzles. Structured argument and conclusions, even in your concise 3-sentence format, would achieve nothing if the person was not feeling like listening to begin with. You may be able to win a debate and force the other to realize "yes, I am doing this wrong, I am slowing down the run, I am bad, and I should probably do it in a better way", but you cannot make them want to "improve, adapt, be a nicer person and make the game better for everyone, in general". You are not their butler and you cannot be there the next time they does something wrong, or every time after that too.

So my line of logic is that instead of correcting their trivial mistake one at a time, it be better you let them understand, even just a little, and via showing, not telling, what it means to think, to think of actions and mechanics in this game, to think for others, and to continuously improve of oneself. Of course this is not applicable nor even ideal for all situations as Miste said, but this is my thoughts on the matter and my stance on it as well.

Jas710 also mentions that if one mentors, one mentors regardless of the status or not, a viewpoint I echoed. But Altena also points out the "mentor" system by itself is highly structural and only for answering "simple questions", perhaps not truly worth the "mentor" name. But then again, "botanist" in this game only has about 2.5% similarity to actual real life botany, at most, So I guess this is just a make believe game meant to make you feel good while doing good things. Mentor system may be no different ... thus your "control" view of only taking mentor system like a job or task to only give enough and nothing more ... only focusing on clarity and professionalism in wording, is actually sound reasoning from this perspective. I would reason in the same way too, back when I did telephone operator for community hotlines, by being a human google on a phone. You don't put emotion into it even if your whole job was a charity to help. But do we like it? Is that truly an ideal existence? Is there nothing we can do about it? Well now we get to the big questions again.