Tips on being a mentor but not sounding bossy

[Miste]

Why aren't you doing XYZ??

Why ask this when it's already obvious the person doesn't know what XYZ does or how to use it? It is pointless, accusational, and invites the other person to either admit ignorance or tell you to get on your bike. unsurprisingly, some are going to choose the latter. Either way, you aren't making any friends that way.

You are only looking at this from your point of view.

Some people do have reasons why they do not use certain abilities or spells even if they know what they are. Or they might know the spell, but not realize the best application for it so asking them is kind of a launching off point to try to help them out.

Again simply asking a question to someone else should not be condemned like this. All they did was ask a question which the other person can reply in a civil manner, or simply ignore if they really want to.

It is only accusatory if you choose to see it that way. It might not be the intention of the person writing it at all so you are making a baseless assumption.

It is way too defensive to get upset at someone just asking a question. You have no idea what their intentions are so why jump to the negative? Maybe they were just attempting to help by starting up a conversation.

It is possible to inject tone into a sentence with word choice. Look up a few posts at Vandril's. There are good examples and explanations how this is possible in that post.

I don't know who Vandril is, but simply the reason that it doesn't work is because everyone interprets words differently so no you cannot actually tell the intended tone of someone else through text alone unless they were using extremely obvious aggressive words like name calling, insults, swears etc. You may if you knew the person very well, but if it is someone you've never met before you do not know their tone through what they type alone.

Not everyone who plays this game is a native English speaker either so that adds onto the fact you cannot assume someone's tone through text.

[XiXiQ]

You are only looking at this from your point of view.

That's how everyone sees things. You included.

All they did was ask a question which the other person can reply in a civil manner, or simply ignore if they really want to.

It is only accusatory if you choose to see it that way. It might not be the intention of the person writing it at all so you are making a baseless assumption.

When you know you have a chance of something you say being taken the wrong way, when it's been explained to you by more than one person here why that particular approach does not often work - and your own experience has born that out - why are you still defending it?

and if that comment annoyed you, I have made my point.

[Miste]

That's how everyone sees things. You included.

I actually meant you are only looking at it from your point in view in the case that you didn't know that some people may have reasons for not using certain spells or abilities and not because they don't know they are there so it isn't actually a pointless thing to ask someone that sometimes. If you didn't know that then now you do.

Actually I am not only seeing things from my point of view. I am advocating that we shouldn't declare someone guilty without knowing their actual intentions. A question alone is not inherently a rude or a bad thing nor is it accusatory (as long as the person asking is neutral/polite/general and not using insults, name calling, or harassing language)

When you know you have a chance of something you say being taken the wrong way, when it's been explained to you by more than one person here why that particular approach does not often work - and your own experience has born that out - why are you still defending it?

and if that comment annoyed you, I have made my point.

Uh...I think you have severely misunderstood something here, because no I am not annoyed, but I am confused at your response.

The point I am trying to defend is that harassment should never be okay. I am saying that someone who may pose a question like that might be completely innocent and not intending to upset anyone. So maybe people should not harass someone for that simple question. I mean I can put out a scenario I suppose to try to help you understand what I am trying to say.

Person A is helpful, she likes to help others, she has fun chatting, anytime she wants to help someone she has the the intention of doing it just to be nice and to be helpful and zero malice.
Person B is in a DF with Person A and is doing a mechanic very incorrectly (just going to make this in general so any mechanic fight or job related)

Person A nicely and politely asks Person B if they understand the mechanic.
Person B answers rudely and harasses Person A with insults.

So...what person B did was okay in your eyes? Because that is the scenario I am saying shouldn't happen, yet I've seen it happen. So I don't know what point or argument you are trying to make here.

I am defending and advocating that if someone poses a question or suggestion to someone else if they are unsure of their intentions they can easily ask a question back instead of getting defensive and throwing insults at a person who may have just been trying to help out of kindness. How they word it isn't the problem because the person has the option to ask for clarification and see where it goes from there.

I mean people jumping to negative conclusions just circulates more hate and malice, why would we want that?

If someone asks you a question and you are unsure of their intentions you can simply ask a question back to judge the situation better instead of immediately getting defensive.

[TaleraRistain]

I don't know who Vandril is, but simply the reason that it doesn't work is because everyone interprets words differently so no you cannot actually tell the intended tone of someone else through text alone unless they were using extremely obvious aggressive words like name calling, insults, swears etc. You may if you knew the person very well, but if it is someone you've never met before you do not know their tone through what they type alone.

Vandril is another poster and I was drawing attention to their post a few above my post that you quoted. I see it now at the top of page 4. It was a very good explanation on what soft language is and how the use of the word "you" can be seen as confrontational. You do not have to use name calling, insults, or swearing to set an aggressive tone in text.

[DevilsDontFly]

I'd say the best way is to not blur advice to the point it sounds like criticism. The line that divides those two things is pretty thin.

At the start of the duty it might help new players to feel more confident and less nervous about messing up with phrases like: "Hello! If anyone needs help with mechanics or anything else, please let me know."
That welcomes the player to ask for help if they want to. Sometimes even people that mess up don't like to receive help and preffer to learn things on their own.

In the end everything changes based on how you phrase yourself. Per example, if you see a Conjurer or White Mage that is brand new, casting Medica for single target heals. Don't call the mistake as common sense, even though it might look like common sense to you and everyone else. Make the player feel like he can relate to you and vice versa.
"Hey, playername, I remember when I started to level up healers I caught myself using Medica like that too. If you use just Cure, it won't be as punishing for your MP and it's also stronger for single target. Have you tried it?"
Even if you haven't done it, sometimes a small "lie" can make whoever you are teaching to feel like everybody makes those kinds of mistakes, even the almighty mentors at the scary end game community. And can make them feel like if you made a mistake similar to theirs in the past, tomorrow they might be someone like you mentoring new players as well.
And if you feel like this approach is not helping, then try just asking. "Hey, playername, would you mind if I gave you some tips? It might help you a lot in this trial/dungeon/fight."
Mentioning that you feel like your help is just going to impact this one trial/dungeon/fight creates the ilusion that the player isn't messing up with anything else but this one encounter. And if they are willing to listen to the help, it'll end up impacting the way they play altogether subconsciously.

Not sure if this will help you, or even if it would help anyone here. But when it comes to me, it helps, and it also helped other players I came across playing this game and many others. To me the key to being able to help someone is to make them feel like you also needed help at some point, while respecting their bondaries if they feel like your help is not what they need.

[Sarteck]

And if you feel like this approach is not helping, then try just asking. "Hey, playername, would you mind if I gave you some tips? It might help you a lot in this trial/dungeon/fight."
Mentioning that you feel like your help is just going to impact this one trial/dungeon/fight creates the ilusion that the player isn't messing up with anything else but this one encounter. And if they are willing to listen to the help, it'll end up impacting the way they play altogether subconsciously.

I occasionally play with a real life friend, and I remember when someone was trying to give him some advice for Tanking. He felt like it was some kind of personal attack or demand, and it took me a bit of effort to explain to him later that the guy was honestly just trying to help, to make sure we were able to get through the dungeon.

I feel like this approach, actually asking the player if they'd like some advice, might have worked out a lot better, instead of offering unsolicited advice, or at least in my friend's specific case. (I guess it would be different for everyone, though.)

I believe his words (after we got out of the dungeon) were, "I hate other people telling me how to play." (But he never minds when I tell him what to do, hah.)

In my own case as a newbie (this is my first MMO ever, and I've only been playing three months), I always appreciate advice, and have been in online communities enough that things that might bother other newbies don't really get to me. The community here is very helpful (at least on my server), and I appreciate all the help I can get. I've only had two people that seemed "elitist" to me, , but their "advice" was also entirely unhelpful: "WTF is that Monk doing?" and "WTF are you DPSing right now?"

I almost kind of miss my leaf, because I haven't been getting much advice lately, lol!

[Jas710]

In a daily dungeon, just stick to what needs to be done as far as mechanics go if issues come up with wiping. As for anything else, just roll with it and work towards getting to the end. If they stop and ask for tips, then open your mouth. Have some faith that they will eventually learn down the road somewhere what they might be doing wrong or could improve/upgrade. Just like the rest of us did at some point, and still do.

Note that the mentor system is one of the dumbest ideas put into the game. That crown icon over your head is unnecessary. If you feel like the crown and rewards somehow makes you feel special, then you are doing it for all the wrong reasons.

[bswpayton]

In a daily dungeon, just stick to what needs to be done as

Im not following your statement, because I disagree I think the mentor system is fine but because you can point out someone with a crown easier people like to talk about it. I very much became a mentor to help new players like I was helped when I started playing, I got alot of help from the nn. My questioning on tips is because people tend to think most mentors do it for the crown, if that was the case why would I be asking for tips in the first place I already have the crown as you say. I really would like to help, and I know that by nature Im not an aggressive or rude person, so id rather try and help as a decent mentor than , one of the more rude ones people can run into in the game. Hence why I said not talkin about amazing rotations and what not , but its still people around that dont just do the basic things on a job.

Im sure its still palidans out there that dont even know total eclipse exist, or that dont that once you hit unleash once or twice on drk you dont have to spam it I use to be one of those drks haha. That its easy to get mp back after using abymsal drain, you can see it all on the screen you can see what skills players are using etc. So if I see a red mage on a 12 add pull doing their single target rotation why not say something to try and help. Aoe is a thing that many people just forget is a thing it seems in this game.

[Jas710]

...if that was the case why would I be asking for tips in the first place I already have the crown as you say...

I run into players all the time who are still learning their jobs. I should get paid every time I have to mention Shield Oath or Protect, etc.

Thing is, you seem to think wearing a crown designates you an "official" mentor. Which like I mentioned earlier about the system itself, is a load of b.s. We should all be in mentor mode anyway whether we have that icon on or not. That was my point.

Besides, if you were truly ready to mentor people, why does this thread exist? A mentor who doesn't understand why some folks go on the defensive after receiving advice they didn't ask for? Keep that crown off until you figure it out. If you want to toggle that icon on, then you also need to be prepared for scrutiny.

If I sound aggressive, it's because I see terrible "mentors" all the time, and just roll my eyes.

[Altena]

If I sound aggressive, it's because I see terrible "mentors" all the time, and just roll my eyes.

The mentor system is more about answering simple questions such as "where do I get a mount?" or "I can't find my next MSQ" etc...

Everyone should be in "mentor mode" when running stuff, I will agree there.. However the mentor system works for those basic questions that I mentioned.
You don't have to be an all-star vet to answer questions like that - just knowledgeable enough to know where to find the answer and most importantly willing enough to help.

There are always going to be "bad" mentors that give the crown a bad name, just as there are plenty of non-crown players that give the rest of the community a bad name.
The only reason people keep seeing "bad mentors" is because there is something to make them stand out.
I can almost assure you the percentage of unhelpful/toxic mentors compared to helpful/positive ones, is likely a similar number to unhelpful/toxic non-mentors compared to helpful/positive non-mentors.

The issue is not with the system, but with the selection. Becoming a mentor has nothing to do with a player's willingness to help out. It's about having jobs/classes leveled. The system itself is perfectly fine (having a newbie chat channel and something to identify someone in a duty that is willing to help).