Tips on being a mentor but not sounding bossy

[Raqrie_Tohka]

This is only a few of them, there is plenty more.

Hmm don't take it personally but even if your intentions were probably reasonable, what they perceived, and what I think they perceived if I tentatively try to see it from their theoretical standpoint, is that reminding them about rotations is being the efficiency police.

I don't know how to put something as delicate as this thought I'm trying to express, into reasonable words, forgive me, but ... hmm, try to "empathize"? Er, to be there as help, for them, as a person, than to "offer" help, as a transaction? No that didn't come out right either. I'll come back when I've actually got it straightened out. Ugh, at least one point I want to bring up is, if they think your motive is to be the efficiency police, then no matter how well worded an advice is, they will encounter it with hostility. So sometimes the right thing to do in a conversation is just to "listen" ... if that'll be the one takeaway I would will myself to remember from this thread. There are many intrinsic details to the art of conversation but I think "to listen" is as simplest and straightforward as it could possibly get. To "listen" not just to words, but to the situation, to them, both in their actions and as a whole, to the tone and atmosphere, or if nothing, just to silence, for silence is golden. And humbling.

At any rate, I'd rather mentors be viewed as "friends for (free) hire" than "efficiency police" anyday.

[Raqrie_Tohka]

Ok just as a little case-study. All you wonderful people and conversation participants, experienced mentors and distinguished persons ... ahem, let me propose we play a little game to lighten things up and put it all into a bit of perspective.

Scenario: A paladin refuses to use shield oath in 4-man dungeon. The pal is using sword oath, though.

Question: What courses of action will you take to address this situation, as a mentor, and what is your reasoning behind taking these respective actions? What are some possible outcomes of the scenario, and what corresponding actions would you take to further address those?

[Miste]

is that reminding them about rotations is being the efficiency police.

My intentions were to help. If those people perceive incorrectly without asking me for clarification then that is their own fault, not mine. They made an assumption that was incorrect and started harassing me for their own mistake instead of simply asking me what my intention was. Like I said before it takes at least two people to have a conversation; it does not only rest upon my shoulders to make sure the situation stays respectful.

So sometimes the right thing to do in a conversation is just to "listen"

You want me to "listen" to insults? Sorry, but this makes no sense. Every one of those scenarios the players just threw insults at me...why would anyone "listen" to that?

Sorry, but I don't agree with your opinions on this nor would I likely ever agree.

You do not have to use name calling, insults, or swearing to set an aggressive tone in text.

You need to use them if you want to 100% show you are trying to set an aggressive tone. Otherwise the other person has no idea what "tone" you are using since they cannot hear you. Like I said before you cannot tell a person's tone through text if they use very neutral common words. Just using "you" doesn't mean someone is being hostile on purpose. "You" is a common and highly used English word, people use it all the time. Instead of assuming a person could just ask the other person's intention.

Not everyone knows about "soft language". I would say most people don't. They likely just talk to people like they would to casual acquaintances, simple but polite with no insults, name calling, or swearing. Unless you've done college level English I would say most people don't know these concepts and especially in an online game where there may be younger players.

So again I advocate not making assumptions.

[TaleraRistain]

I don't know who Vandril is, but simply the reason that it doesn't work is because everyone interprets words differently so no you cannot actually tell the intended tone of someone else through text alone unless they were using extremely obvious aggressive words like name calling, insults, swears etc. You may if you knew the person very well, but if it is someone you've never met before you do not know their tone through what they type alone.

Vandril is another poster and I was drawing attention to their post a few above my post that you quoted. I see it now at the top of page 4. It was a very good explanation on what soft language is and how the use of the word "you" can be seen as confrontational. You do not have to use name calling, insults, or swearing to set an aggressive tone in text.

[TaleraRistain]

You need to use them if you want to 100% show you are trying to set an aggressive tone. Otherwise the other person has no idea what "tone" you are using since they cannot hear you. Like I said before you cannot tell a person's tone through text if they use very neutral common words. Just using "you" doesn't mean someone is being hostile on purpose. "You" is a common and highly used English word, people use it all the time. Instead of assuming a person could just ask the other person's intention.

Honestly, there's no point in arguing with you about this any longer. Despite that fact that multiple people have told you that you can convey tone with word choice and provided examples, you brush that off entirely because it doesn't fit your particular worldview. I imagine you would be just as resistant to the idea that even when you can set tone, such as a face to face conversation, word choice is still important because even with a polite tone, confrontational words and phrases are still confrontational words and phrases.

[Miste]

Honestly, there's no point in arguing with you about this any longer. Despite that fact that multiple people have told you that you can convey tone with word choice and provided examples, you brush that off entirely because it doesn't fit your particular worldview.

You are arguing against facts and that is why there is no point in arguing.

Fact: you cannot tell someone's tone through text if they are using common neutral words.

This isn't something to be argued, that's the problem, but you aren't understanding me.

If I type "Could you do *insert any request here*" to someone in-game for example.

What tone do I have? Any answer you could possibly give is an assumption unless you ask me.

If I type "hey *insert nasty swear word or insult here* do this or I vote kick you"

Well due to the insults and/or threats it is extremely obvious if not fact that I am being rude and setting an aggressive tone.

No matter what "tone" I try to convey the interpreter is the other person on the receiving end and we might not be using anywhere near the same frequency so it gets lost in translation. There is no guaranteed way to convey the tone you want to the other person through text. Minus using very very forceful language like insults, threats, or swears, or possibly the other extreme spectrum of using very lovey dovey over the top sweet language or emotes/emoticons to convey affection, but like I said before people even interpret emotes/emoticons differently and some people see them as condescending.

So again, no, you cannot convey tone through word choice (minus the extremes I mentioned, but even that could potentially be a grey area depending on the situation. For example over the top affectionate comments or happy face emotes could actually be hidden behind a sarcastic tone and without hearing the person you would never know).

You can TRY to convey it through word choice, but that is all you can do. Try. Doesn't mean it will succeed. On that point I never disagreed, but you are trying to claim you can fully convey tone to someone through text by simple word choices, it's not possible unless you make it clear you are using a specific tone by openly saying so. Like how some people do "/s" to declare they are being sarcastic.

I imagine you would be just as resistant to the idea that even when you can set tone, such as a face to face conversation, word choice is still important because even with a polite tone, confrontational words and phrases are still confrontational words and phrases.

Nice assumption. I believe I mentioned before making assumptions is not a good thing.

[Raqrie_Tohka]

Sigh ... just try to focus on the case study, people. I'll post my own detailed analysis in a day or two.

[BlastHardcheese]

Biggest tip? Pick your battles, ask questions rather than pontificate, be polite and assume you're going to get the most negative response to your input.

If someone's rocking a level 3 ring at level 50 yet the rest of their gear is OK? This is not the hill you want to die on, they obviously understand gearing yet are either too lazy to gear that slot, in which case you'll probably get a negative response or no response. Or they forgot to equip something appropriate in which case you'll probably just embarrass then calling it out.

If you get a fabled ice/thunder BLM or someone that won't aoe the 50 mob's beating the tank to death then that's when you step in.

The last golden rule: If you start getting overwhelming negativity from trying to help, back down and leave them be or remove them if they're adversely effecting whatever it is you're trying to do at the time. Some people just cannot be reasoned with.

This is regarding leveling content and not anything endgame, if someone's in your Savage raid in vendor whites then I'd hope the whole group would back you up.

[zokque]

I have a relatively simple philosophy when it comes to mentoring.

-no need to say mechanics unless it's not blantantly obvious
-I only answer questions when asked
-don't comment on someone's gameplay unless it's really hindering the group.

I don't comment on healer/tank or even the dps' dps. As long as they're doing something and not sitting there I don't really care.

Does it frustrate me when the healer doesn't dps? Yes. Does it annoy me when the tank doesn't go out of tank stance to dps? Yes. Does it annoy me that the dps don't aoe? Yes. I always try to optimize myself in dps. I know what I'm doing is making the run go faster. If anyone asks, then yeah I'll tell them, because that most likely means that they do want to get better and won't get butthurt

I've just learned to not expect much from people.

[bswpayton]

I have a relatively simple philosophy when it comes to mentoring.

-no need to say mechanics unless it's not blantantly obvious


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everything u said is fine but dps not aoeing this i believe wipes more runs than anything a healer does I just didnt notice how often dps literally do not aoe. at this point i feel like I might start kicking dps that dont aoe its that bad