SAM out classing all other DPS

[Elnidfse]

Well, things like Raise SHOULD be taken into account. Even if BLMs were fixed to deal the same damage as a RDM (or even a little more), no one will take BLMs because they bring nothing extra to the table. A RDM's ability to Raise players and do s little healing can save the group from wiping. That's a pretty big deal. Ignoring the fact that they can do that is a huge mistake on any designers part.

Raise SHOULD not be taken into account. rDPS increases are always available. Somebody doesn't always die. And no. Nobody takes BLM because their DPS is terrible. You shouldn't balance around something that you won't be using in all of your fights. It's not even a bad balance decision. It'd be as useless and dumb as balancing around palisade or dismantle. If the healers are competent the raid is competent, neither of your tools are used, but people with static rDPS increases or high personal DPS won't just lose these abilities as they are always applicable.

[Dralonis]

Well, things like Raise SHOULD be taken into account. Even if BLMs were fixed to deal the same damage as a RDM (or even a little more), no one will take BLMs because they bring nothing extra to the table. A RDM's ability to Raise players and do s little healing can save the group from wiping. That's a pretty big deal. Ignoring the fact that they can do that is a huge mistake on any designers part.

imo RDM only is dealing more damage on the norm in susano due to how much mobility there is in the fight. Their utility can Depends on dps checks. However, BLM's need a good tuning and more dps imo. I'd imagine BLM's will be great around 4.2, but unless they make some drastic changes, I don't think I'll see them all that much in raids atm. SMN's are too taxing if you die, if you nerf rdm, there's little to no reason to have a caster roll lol. you need to buff the others to be as good as rdm in some respective field/way. All BLM's have right now is AOE.

[MiruWest]

Let's not pretend this is even remotely true. Even if they were to put them on DMG comparable to Ninja's right now but remove their RDPS they would still not be excluded from parties to the extent that a certain two non melee jobs are. And if you're so worried about not being brought you should get in line behind WHM, BLM, MCH, DRG, and SMN. Because you seem to think that SAM should flat out be better and always have a guaranteed spot in every comp always.

Tf? NIN and MNK are right behind SAM in terms of damage. SAM does not have a solidified slot in a raid, NIN is literally the ONLY melee with a guaranteed spot atm. DRG/SMN/MCH are the only classes atm that things look bleak for, every other class can find a slot.

To say you dont count Raise as utility is bs. A RDM can do the same DPS as a BLM with alot less effort, but what pushes RDM over? Embolden and Raise, which will be a good send in prog.

[Powercow]

Shoulder tackle is first and foremost a mobility tool. It's slightly more potent than an autoattack and it has a very short cd. Any mnk even remotely decent will know when it's better to delay its use to deal with mechanics. And by the way, probably any ninja in the game would gladly trade shukuchi for something like tackle.

No pizza roll for you, then.

And here's a fun (and relevant!) example: Halicarnassus's stack+about->lightning combo where if you tackle back in, you'll be stuck in the lightning due to animation lock while a Ninja can Shukuchi parallel to the lightning bolt and not get paralyzed. To be fair, Samurai do have this issue too, and a Dragoon would need to be exceptionally careful with Elusive Jump. Maybe if they gave Elusive Jump a cooldown that frequently resets and let you pick where you land... nah, nah that'd be crazy.

[Elnidfse]

Tf? NIN and MNK are right behind SAM in terms of damage. SAM does not have a solidified slot in a raid, NIN is literally the ONLY melee with a guaranteed spot atm. DRG/SMN/MCH are the only classes atm that things look bleak for, every other class can find a slot.

To say you dont count Raise as utility is bs. A RDM can do the same DPS as a BLM with alot less effort, but what pushes RDM over? Embolden and Raise, which will be a good send in prog.

To say I don't count?
1)You mean to say that yoshi-p does not count support when balancing DPS http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...80#post4263080
You can appeal to whatever you want but it means little with the guy who's in charge of this game does not support the point you stand behind.
2) Nobody is not counting Embolden. Embolden is a RDPS increase. An rDPS increase is NOT a supportive defensive increase. It's a rDPS increase. Unless you are part of the cast that have the mindset of "if SAM gets a 2% nerf they won't be competitive" there's nothing to discuss here.

[MiruWest]

snip

Embolden isnt utility? TA isnt utility, BL isnt utility, Disembowel isnt utility? oh wait its actually IS considered utility by the community.

SAM doesnt need a nerf when you have the 2 other melee right behind it in terms of raw dps. Only melee needing to be brought up is DRG and all will be good. People need to stop crying for nerfs when they dont even have a legitimate reason for nerfing them.

[Elnidfse]

Embolden isnt utility? TA isnt utility, BL isnt utility, Disembowel isnt utility? oh wait its actually IS considered utility by the community.

SAM doesnt need a nerf when you have the 2 other melee right behind it in terms of raw dps. Only melee needing to be brought up is DRG and all will be good. People need to stop crying for nerfs when they dont even have a legitimate reason for nerfing them.

Did you even look at the link or at least gleam my post? Nobody is discounting rDPS. What you're trying to do is pretend that offensive cooldowns are the same as defensive supportive. They're not. Revive and cure and dismantle and palisade have NO bearing when balancing DPS output. What you think is considered utility by the community does not matter. Yoshi-P says it's not considered, so it's not. Revive and trick attack aren't in the same league. They're not on the same planet. One is being considered for balance of DPS. The other isn't Period.

[Vexsteel]

From what I have seen, they are easy, their rotation is as simple as a tank rotation. every other melee dps has more than one page of rotation, but I see that your mainning a Sam so your are biased.

lol. The rotation at 70 is not simple. It is very easy to see a good SAM vs a bad one. The number of ppl playing SAM has massively dropped since ppl now realize its actually a hard class since our opener is a 20 button chain before you even get into the rotation. if you stuff up once you can lose 1k dps very quick. also they bring no raid utility so the dps needs to be high. ALL other dps bring some form or raid utility. My main is also warrior inb4 winge

[MahoSenshi]

Leveled SAM to 70 and 68 NIN atm - the latter feels much easier to play, honestly.

[Elnidfse]

lol. The rotation at 70 is not simple. It is very easy to see a good SAM vs a bad one. The number of ppl playing SAM has massively dropped since ppl now realize its actually a hard class since our opener is a 20 button chain before you even get into the rotation. if you stuff up once you can lose 1k dps very quick. also they bring no raid utility so the dps needs to be high. ALL other dps bring some form or raid utility. My main is also warrior inb4 winge

A 20 chain button opener is nothing compared to the rotation a 2.0 DRG had to deal with and continue to deal with. But despite their complexity they don't baseline flat out beat everybody in DPS now do they. No. In fact they're the lowest melee DPS and are down there on average with casters.

Also:

The number of ppl playing SAM has massively dropped

What? The number of parses for Samurai submitted, the only metric to judge population, has gone UP since Stormblood has launched and is now second only to RDM in terms of number of Parses submitted. Contrast MCH which has half the submitted results of the second lowest job.

they bring no raid utility

And BLM bring no raid utility either and yet they're so far above BLM because...?
Ah that's right. BLM is a skilless class. How silly. Anybody can play one of those and be good, right?

It is very easy to see a good SAM vs a bad one.

Yeah You can tell just how bad they are by looking at how high they're beating you by. A below average 50th percentile SAM does more DPS than the best MCH. I'm sure the 0.625% increase to rDPS is worth being so outclassed.
A 60th percentile SAM will do more DPS than the best BLM on average. I guess being the most susceptible class job to mechanics means they should be one of the least desirable jobs in the game.
A 60 percentile also will average higher than a 90th DRG. Clearly they're sub 0.7%-0.8% rDPS contribution justifies their absolutely laughable place on the ladder.

Hard to play? What a joke. While pushing your last 8% is indeed challenging you don't need it. You can be worse than the player you're paired against and still crush them by far more DPS than what they supply to the raid. So let's play a game using some numbers I made not long ago

Which one of these is the SAM


But See. I expect to run into some arguments. Let's multiply the uptime of the average (which is higher than mine that fight) top 20 MCH (15% uptime) or 0.625% total rDPS increase and apply that to everybody. Not just the DPS. We'll apply it to everybody including the healers.

At a 0.625% total rDPS increase my effective DPS is 3265.5 + a theoretically inaccurate 185.9 (That is, giving everybody a 20 DPS increase when in reality only 4 DPS benefit greatly and to this extent).

This brings my effective DPS to 3451.4
Versus 3718.6
Do you see the problem here?

Your "difficult" rotation amounts to nothing when you don't have to perform it well to get amazing results that far surpass every other jobs combined personal and raid potential DPS.