SAM out classing all other DPS

[Ryaz]

There's a huge difference between keeping Chakra, and keeping Greased Lightning.
Or keeping Ninki, and losing Huton (though admittedly you can easily pop this back on).


The point I was trying to make is, other melee are severely punished during downtime, while SAMs Sen AND Kenki are untouched. Am I supposed to believe a lack of utility allows jobs to greatly surpass others in the same role?

Huton is a damage buff skill, not a resource... Losing it is pretty much the same as SAM losing Shifu/Jinpu, except Huton lasts a much longer time and can be recast while the boss is away.

[Nominous]

The whole, "But SAM doesn't lose its resources, so it doesn't get punished!" argument is getting so tired. Please look into the Job if you're going to be angry at it. They don't lose resources, which is correct. They get punished through means of overlapping the resource, which loses them potency and puts them behind/unsynced with the rest of their rotation. It sounds like it wouldn't happen, but when you get chosen for mechanics, or bosses jump, it does.

On SAM you lose potency in ways that aren't readily apparent. Same with positionals. People see that the combo potency doesn't require the positional, so they assume SAM has it easier. Untrue. It loses you Kenki. To be exact, 300 potency lost through 5 missed positionals, roughly the same level of punishment as the other Melee.

Oh what about BoTD, and GL, and other buffs dropping? Not gonna happen on DRG, because by the time you finish one combo, you're already about halfway back to the cooldown being available for it again. Also, Nastrond is a grand total of 4% or so of a DRG's DPS. Needs changing, but losing one set of Nastronds would set you back probably less than 1% of their total DPS. MNK has it slightly harder, in that they need PB to gain back all benefits quickly. Considering the overwhelming amount of tools to manage and keep it up though, you won't lose it often. I could go on and on.

As always, each Job has its own set of difficulties. Everyone loses damage on mechanics, just in different ways.

[Eyvhokan]

On SAM you lose potency in ways that aren't readily apparent. Same with positionals. People see that the combo potency doesn't require the positional, so they assume SAM has it easier. Untrue. It loses you Kenki. To be exact, 300 potency lost through 5 missed positionals, roughly the same level of punishment as the other Melee.

Hold on a sec.

Losing 300 potency through 5 missed positionals is only the skills Kasha and Gekko. They each feature once each in the weapon skill rotation, meaning it happens after 2.5 rotations of missing positionals.

DRG loses 310 to 350 from 4 missed positionals, and uses 6 in the whole weapon skill rotation (12348956798). This means only 0.67 rotations of missing positionals will causes a greater potency loss.

MNK has even more positional attacks than DRG, although I don't think the missed positional potency is as high per individual weaponskill on average.

Nastrond is a grand total of 4% or so of a DRG's DPS. Needs changing, but losing one set of Nastronds would set you back probably less than 1% of their total DPS.

Rather than switching away from potency and to % from the positional potency punishment mentioned, losing the nastronds (with a big enough timer) is losing 960 potency. Each Nastrond dropped from shorter timers is 320 on its own.

[TheRedMage]

Hold on a sec.
MNK has even more positional attacks than DRG, although I don't think the missed positional potency is as high per individual weaponskill on average.

Not sure how crits are in potency compared to non crit. But 5 missed positionals for MNK is 190-200 pot loss at least.

[Nominous]

Losing 300 potency through 5 missed positionals is only the skills Kasha and Gekko. They each feature once each in the weapon skill rotation, meaning it happens after 2.5 rotations of missing positionals.

DRG loses 310 to 350 from 4 missed positionals, and uses 6 in the whole weapon skill rotation (12348956798). This means only 0.67 rotations of missing positionals will causes a greater potency loss.

MNK has even more positional attacks than DRG, although I don't think the missed positional potency is as high per individual weaponskill on average.

Rather than switching away from potency and to % from the positional potency punishment mentioned, losing the nastronds (with a big enough timer) is losing 960 potency. Each Nastrond dropped from shorter timers is 320 on its own.

In a vacuum, let's say we miss a positional 5 times flat, in a row. Heavy Thrust loses you 80 potency, you lose 50 from Chaos Thrust, 90 from Wheeling, 90 from FC, 90 all the way at the FC after Full Thrust. 400 potency lost in that sequence, for the sake of comparing it to SAM's 5 weaponskill break-point for losing potency, which rounds out to 300 (losing one Shinten). DRG gets it a little worse than SAM, can't argue that. The actual DPS losses incurred are close enough for either Job to be negligible, which is also true. Even a terrible run where you missed like 20 positionals total (on either Job), ends up being about 1200 potency lost for a SAM, and 1600 potency lost for a DRG. I mean, even if you're embarrassing at melee, the gap is extremely small over the course of a fight, if played even half decently.

Potency lost makes more sense than percentages when talking about positionals. That's why I switched over to percentages when talking about Nastrond, since I feel it's more effective for illustrating the 'punishment' for losing eye stacks during a fight. It's not a totally arbitrary amount, and it must be considered. However, it's yet another small discrepancy.

The whole point here, is that discussion keeps shifting from one thing to the next about SAM, and hardly any have much weight to them. First it was how much DPS it does. Then it became about how easy they pull off their numbers. Then it was that they don't lose resources. And it just cycles, without end, regardless of how much you can prove that...

SAM, like every other Job in the game, needs to work, in their own way, to achieve min/maxed numbers.
SAM, like every other Job in the game, is punished for mismanagement of resources/mechanical downtime. The gap between other Jobs being negligible at best.
SAM, like everyone else, is balanced based on overall methods of contribution, of which, they have no exclusivity other than 'raw damage'.

Everyone talks about balance being by 'degrees', and that SAM pulls far too ahead. Well, the only place where that remains true, among all the aspects of the Job compared to others in the game, is in regards to MCH, arguably DRG. QoL is one thing, and I think almost every Job in the game needs that at this point. That has nothing to do with the state of SAM, which is what it really feels like everyone wants to blame SAM for. Not that it's the case, but.

[Black_Starr]

Had I the foresight to see how the ffxiv masses would break out the pitchforks and torches demanding samurai be nerfed into the ground, I would have stuck with my monk. It wasn't long ago dragons were must have classes and monks were all but disregarded and no one cared. The table turned and now you demand balance. Monk needed this support and most ppl just said delete it, so I say delete dry, mch, and any other class that was on top and ignored the plight of monks.

[Black_Starr]

So, what does drg needing love have to do with sam anyway? If dragon sucks atm nerfing sam will not make it unsuck. The two jobs aren't competing with each other, they are supposed to compliment one another. Instead of talking about how we can destroy sam for destruction's sake, should we not be discussing how to bring jobs like drg and mch back to desirable levels. #dontnerfmebro

[Eyvhokan]

So, what does drg needing love have to do with sam anyway? If dragon sucks atm needing sam will not make it unsuck. The two jobs aren't competing with each other, they are supposed to compliment one another. Instead of talking about how we can destroy sam for destruction's sake, should we not be discussing how to bring jobs like drg and mch back to desirable levels. #dontnerfmebro

Actually that was defending SAM damage, because for all we know, the high SAM damage in parses is because the class isn't punished as hard by boss mechanics so has less to lose rather than the damage being inherently too high. A lot of bosses spin around (even easy ones), meaning you either miss the positional or delay a GCD and the former is usually the better option.

[Ryaz]

I honestly think the biggest problem with "selfish" dps is just the communities perception of it. Think about it, if a Monk with party damage buffs = a Dragoon with party damage buffs = a Samurai's personal dps, then SAM doesn't automatically become useless as MNK and DRG aren't bringing utility, just damage. They're all equally viable. If Brotherhood lowered damage against tank and increased healing, THAT would be utility and make them more desirable.

Now if Ninja + TA = everyone else's dps, then thing get a bit stickier because they also provide non-dps utility like threat management. It's why RDM is so good right now. It isn't just their damage or the damage buff they bring. It's also the fact that they can raise and (sort of) heal.

Utility is what a class brings OUTSIDE of it's main role that's beneficial to the party. AST's Balance falls into the category of utility, but if they brought a healing buff to the group, it wouldn't.

It's why RDMs, NIN and AST are pretty much locks for party spots right now. All of them bring things to the party that other jobs can't. NIN is a dps with aggro tools, RDM is a dps with raise and heals, AST is a healer that buffs dps. The other jobs don't bring anything but buffs inside their roles.

[Nite83]

Ohhh slashing debuff. Thats it that is the whole basis of the argument. Nin is a lock for a raid war may get in too making Sam slashing pointless