SAM out classing all other DPS

[Oscura]

Yo, your character looks way cooler!

Thanks, I appreciate the compliment!

Also, relevancy does matter, it's not really an exaggeration. For pretty much everyone actually, casual or not. I know, because I've experienced this before. Thankfully I don't have to deal with it anymore, since I've been settled into a raid group for quite a while now. Let me tell you what it's like when you don't have that luxury, though.

If you don't have a great network of friends, or an FC that's into raiding, you're depending on PF or "FFXIV Recruitment" in order to find a Raid group. There really aren't many other ways to get into it unless you run into a random advertised linkshell or something. That means you're at the mercy of the recruiter, and their team's specific needs, rather than what you want to play. There were times where I spent weeks looking for a group before a tier launched, even contemplating server transfers before Cross-World started. Back then, it was rarely ever the case you saw someone recruiting for DRG in 2.xx, and MNK in 3.xx. Therein lies the problem. People try and run 'meta' no matter what. Can't stop it, people like the path of least resistance, and highest efficiency if they can help it.

As someone who actually swapped to tanking for quite a while in 2.xx because DRG was so unwanted, I understand the sentiment. I do have to admit I did ignore the perspective of someone who is completely either new or just disconnected from the community. I've often had LSes, friends or FCs I'm in help or be a part of actively participating in my parties, so I made an assumption that some if not most players would have access to these things. Sometimes I forget there was a point where I didn't.

And I don't think it's that they need to go back to drawing board with SAM. I believe it's squarely not the problem. The main offenders are piercing debuff, Trick Attack, and maybe even Embolden, but almost all DPS Jobs have something like that now. So, I think the problem, is that DRG balance is tied to like 3 total Jobs because of Disembowel alone. Where the difference between 5% Disembowel and 10% Disembowel literally could be never bring DRG, or bring DRG and 2 Phys Ranged instead of one. I think the problem is that NIN is so good with TA, it often leaves you with effectively one melee spot in most situations. Without those, there wouldn't be a need to justify any kind of DPS gap on SAM, because it wouldn't need to exist.

I guess it's not the game we play, though. So I guess the only real answer is to slap a 5% damage up for the party in some shape or form, to make it fit in, and call it a day, huh?

I don't exactly believe SAM is the problem and more that sometimes it feels like putting SAM into the game, and to an extension RDM, is like trying to fit a jigsaw piece in the wrong place and then forcing it. As you said, things that existed prior to SAM are mostly what could cause problems with it in parties and/or balancing it in a nutshell. Dragoon by itself is in a weird spot because of disembowel, I actually cursed SE the moment I found out that despite NIN and SAM having slashing res down, that BRD and MCH don't have piercing for themselves. So as you said, the difference between ARR/HW disembowel vs SB disembowel can completely change how relevant the class is, or what classes join it, or how many ranged are necessary. The irony is that right now, DRG is easily the most "selfish," dps, if only because it has piercing debuff all to itself and refuses to share. I've constantly stated my issues with TA and Ninja as a whole many times, I just don't have any reasonable solution I could offer for it if I had to be honest.

As for the 5% damage up to make it fit in, I presume you mean SAM? If so, it's a band-aid solution but it could possibly alleviate complaints and/or controversy around the class. Without simultaneously ruining the class' feel or flow, unless people specifically desire to never buff their team or do anything aside from damage. I very seriously doubt SE would ever take that route, but I feel like it's more possible than them reworking the other classes so that there's more synergy or less reliance on specific ones (NIN general, ranged phys to DRG, Non WAR tanks to nin/sam, etc) since honestly I'm very cynical about them.

[Nominous]

Yeah. I don't think you're wrong. It's just boring if that's gonna be how we approach stuff from now on. Like, 3 of 4 melee have the reduced GCD buff that barely work any differently. 3 of 4 melee have a damage up buff that works the same on each. All melee have a debuff, to varying degrees of usefulness. 3 of 4 melee have DoT elements that work the same way. 3 of the 4 melee have raidwide buffs.

I just wish there were more variety, and I feel that SAM is a step towards that in a lot of regards. A melee with a cast bar. A Job in the game without utility. A Job in the game with a resource meter that means real choice in what oGCD you use, and when, as opposed to just keeping everything on cooldown at all times. It's fresh. If I were given the choice to have utility, and have SAM be locked as meta until the game dies because of it, I'd turn it down. I'd rather it be different than conform to the norm.

[MiruWest]

I think reverting that disembowel nerf would bring DRG back up to good terms in damage, not mechanics, but damage. What made DRG a beast in HW was the fact it buffed the 2 already strongest DPS in the game, on top of bringing great DPS themselves. Given that I'm already seeing BRDs creep up on melee DPS in primals, I don't know how buffing Disembowel will fair for them, seeing as we could potentially repeat HW.

I honestly think SAM is in a good spot, its just other classes that need to be brought up. DRG/SMN/MCH, and maybe BLM a tad bit, are the only classes that really have room to complain about needing changes to be on equal playing field with others.

[silentwindfr]

i will be blunt, i don't think blm need anything... people compare jobs without really look at the whole picture.

i will use the number of fflogs for explain myself, since it allows to have the data of many player.
the black mage highest dps is almost identical to the monk, ninja and red mage (about 4500) the different in average is not even 250 dps between the blm and the monk 3278 for the blm and 3511 for the monk. one is a ranged and one is a melee. the difference of dps is not that important.
same the difference between the blm and the rdm is about this: max damage 4565 (rdm) for 4553 (blm); the average is about 3391 (rdm) for 3278 (blm).... the difference is for the average about 120 dps... but rdm burst is a melee burst, meaning for use it, you need to endanger yourself what the blm haven't... you can continue to dps at ranged without take risk of the boss that turn and do a cleave or such.
even the movement of the boss will have no impact, and the time you need to move is shorter than melee since when you don't need to move you can restart right now to attack, not the melee that need to return to melee.

but that not the debats, the blm is at his place, it's more the drg that is far to behind...

a lot of player are simply shocked to see the meta of the game change with the add of two new class, it will be like this at the next expansion. some class will not be on the same level than other, because they have different tool leading to them be more interesting in other content. we have soo far not enough end game content for see if blm is good or not... rdm is strong, i have concern about them two out global coolddown skill that for me is a bit too strong.
but sadly we can often see a rdm be forced to stop to dps for...rez people. or simply assist heal... then... until we get more endgame content, can we really talk about balance on the jobs that have almost no difference in dps?

so far the only three jobs (for the dps) that really need to be look at are: Summoner, dragoon and machinist. outside this *shrugs*

[Lastelli]

I think reverting that disembowel nerf would bring DRG back up to good terms in damage, not mechanics, but damage. What made DRG a beast in HW was the fact it buffed the 2 already strongest DPS in the game, on top of bringing great DPS themselves.

I'm not a fan of the disembowel debuff tbh. Make it too strong and DRG/MCH/BRD becomes meta, too weak and all of them are out of the meta or you bring one (BRD in this case) just because you really want that utility. I really think they should just give BRD and MCH a pierc damage up debuff, add it to hot shot and straight shot or whatever, and adjust drg and mch personal dps accordingly. Achieving balance when you need one job to make the other shine (and a 10% damage buff is huge) is a nightmare.

[MiruWest]

snip

It escapes me how BRD/MCH didn't get their own piercing debuff....

What made MCH/BRD meta was just the insane amount of damage they put in HW on top of how well hyper-charged lined up with the meta comp and then add DRG debuff and the gap just got wider. Even without disembowel, MCh and BRD where beating equally geared DPS. Im afraid if they buff disembowel we could potentially see this happen again. Only thing holding BRD back atm is just lack of access to crit which will change the further we head into the xpac.

Its bad design logic when you have to buff or nerf classes based on each other rather than separately, hence SMN/SCH also.

[Karja]

A Job in the game without utility.

That isn't that special though. MNK in ARR and HW only had Mantra and BLM had only apoc both which did not increase dps. It isn't even unique in SB since BLM lost apoc to the role skills and has currently no unique party buff.

i will be blunt, i don't think blm need anything... people compare jobs without really look at the whole picture.

i will use the number of fflogs for explain myself, since it allows to have the data of many player.
the black mage highest dps is almost identical to the monk, ninja and red mage (about 4500) the different in average is not even 250 dps between the blm and the monk 3278 for the blm and 3511 for the monk. one is a ranged and one is a melee. the difference of dps is not that important.
same the difference between the blm and the rdm is about this: max damage 4565 (rdm) for 4553 (blm); the average is about 3391 (rdm) for 3278 (blm).... the difference is for the average about 120 dps... but rdm burst is a melee burst, meaning for use it, you need to endanger yourself what the blm haven't... you can continue to dps at ranged without take risk of the boss that turn and do a cleave or such.
even the movement of the boss will have no impact, and the time you need to move is shorter than melee since when you don't need to move you can restart right now to attack, not the melee that need to return to melee.

but that not the debats, the blm is at his place, it's more the drg that is far to behind...

a lot of player are simply shocked to see the meta of the game change with the add of two new class, it will be like this at the next expansion. some class will not be on the same level than other, because they have different tool leading to them be more interesting in other content. we have soo far not enough end game content for see if blm is good or not... rdm is strong, i have concern about them two out global coolddown skill that for me is a bit too strong.
but sadly we can often see a rdm be forced to stop to dps for...rez people. or simply assist heal... then... until we get more endgame content, can we really talk about balance on the jobs that have almost no difference in dps?

so far the only three jobs (for the dps) that really need to be look at are: Summoner, dragoon and machinist. outside this *shrugs*

So your argument is because BLM lower but close to RDM it's balanced? The job is the caster equivalent of SAM, it's stone sky sea DPS requirement for the ex primals is 6 dps lower than SAM. The next closest one is SMN which is 175 dps behind BLM.
So you think that a job that offers no raid utility at all, not even a throwaway one like SAM does, is behind a job like RDM with combat heals, combat insta rezz and a melee dps buff?
By that logic SAM shouldn't be ahead of any other job at all.

The other problem with your statement is that you disregard any kind of party utility the jobs bring. SMN, DRG and MCH need help too but BLM isn't in a good spot either.

[Nominous]

And BLM is another example, provided they make it slightly better, of what I'd like to see more of in the game. So, you're not wrong. Also, when only 2 of 9 DPS Jobs lack utility, its unique. It isn't exclusive, but it is the rarity at this point.

[Galvuu]

snip

I disagree with like, most of what you said (and it doesn't really make sense), but I'm not here to debate any of this except two things.

Never use the 99% percentile. That thing is hella padded.
Use 75% through 90%. Much clearer picture, much less padding and a lot more parses for greater statistical significance.

And there's like 0 (actually 0) "danger" in being in melee range. When I Corps-a-Corps for my (literally) 5 seconds melee combo I'm not in danger. In fact, I frequently prefer to be near bosses at all times for damage shares and cone attacks (especially with BLM, because having to leave your LL god knows where to stay 5 seconds near a boss for a share is painful).
In this particular game, being in melee range has like, no additional threat. Some aoes are worse if you're up close, some are worse if you're far, and you need to learn where to stay. If the boss turns around and cleaves the party, well, first that's the tank's fault (or maybe a dps went full lazy and didn't pop Diversion prepull... I see that a lot) and second, it's likely that a healer might get bopped in the process. Realistically, you should never be getting cleaved if people are playing to the lowest degree of competence ("don't cleave the party" is like one of the bare minimums).

And man, you don't lose like any dps to heal/raise. You lose one gcd of dps. Your mana stays nice and put and you have no buffs/timers to mind, so there's no loss at all other than that one gcd of dps, and if you're using Lucid as you should, your mana stays the same until you raise. You can afford about 3ish raises before it becomes an issue. And if you're raising that much, odds are that party won't be able to clear whatever you're trying to clear on that pull anyway.

Oh, and note that all melee classes have gapclosers so then can return to the boss in a second if a mechanic forces them to move away. They can also attack while the party is moving around if they keep close to the boss.
Know who can't? SMN and BLM (RDM can semi-do it because of dualcast, you just need to slidecast into this stutter step of spellcasting).

[Waliel]

Ohhh slashing debuff. Thats it that is the whole basis of the argument. Nin is a lock for a raid war may get in too making Sam slashing pointless

<devil's>Or is it that SAM having slashing makes NIN and WAR irrelevant?</advocate>