SAM out classing all other DPS

[Thunda_Cat_SMASH]

Black mage is the only job without raid wide utility. SAM is a close second with Slashing debuff since two other jobs also have slashing.

Slashing debuff is not utility you can attribute to a Samurai for the simple reason that it's required for a NIN to maximize their own damage. So to say SAM has raid utility when it's paired with something else that has said utility is worth nothing more than a laugh.

After all, unlike Samurai, NIN is in fact mandatory and has a slashing debuff with much higher effective uptime, making Samurai redundant at best and worthless at worst.

[Eyvhokan]

SAM specializes purely in dealing personal damage. All other dps jobs have some raid wide utility that increases their own dps slightly. SAM being any weaker than it is means that it's the new 2.X DRG, and a significant loss to take over rather jobs, rather than a negligible loss.

That's because the whole design idea of selfish DPS is flawed.

Utility that makes them deal more damage is synergy (or combo), not actual utility like ressing or resource re-stocking, or worse is really a dependency (think DRG piercing debuff with BRD and MCH).


If 'selfish dps' is high enough that 'synergy dps' is less, then the synergy DPS is just a liability because it has more moving parts and is less resilient and makes it completely pointless. If the 'synergy parts' are worth it, the 'selfish dps' is automatically less desirable. In the abstract, it is conceptually not possible to balance.

With different classes, some fall in to place in that paradigm and others don't. That's why in your list the mandatory ones are NIN, RDM and BRD - because they actually fit the synergy paradigm in terms of damage (or BRD having actual utility, and self resilience to boss mechanics*). The ones that don't (most poignantly DRG and MCH) are less desirable to SAM because even with their synergy, they don't provide the numbers in damage, nor do they provide actual 'utility'.

*another factor that is overlooked over raw numbers is resilience to boss mechanics, mostly from DPS loss from moving, but individual class mechanics will play into this. From what I hear, SAM is actually a pretty good recoverer for melee dps.

[Lastelli]

*another factor that is overlooked over raw numbers is resilience to boss mechanics, mostly from DPS loss from moving, but individual class mechanics will play into this. From what I hear, SAM is actually a pretty good recoverer for melee dps.

As good as MNK, slightly worse than NIN, strictly worse than RDM and both ranged dps.

Anyway, balancing is not easy. The dev team needs data to understand where a job's personal dps should be depending on the utility it brings to the raid. They will probably slightly buff DRG/MCH damage and make some qol fixes, this is all these jobs really need.

Still, this whole discussion amazes me. There's general consensus about NIN/RDM/BRD being pretty much mandatory now with SAM and MNK fighting for the last spot and people are still complaining about SAM higher personal dps. This is just hilarious.

[Draven]

SAM specializes purely in dealing personal damage. All other dps jobs have some raid wide utility that increases the raids dps, and thus their own dps contribution. SAM being any weaker than it is means that it's the new 2.X DRG, and a significant loss to take over rather jobs, rather than a negligible loss.

Which just means they failed to make a job that has any good party utility, again, but that still doesn't mean it has any "rights" to being overpowered when it comes to dps. If it's a dps class like other dps classes, then it has no more rights to anything than any other dps class. Period.

[Lastelli]

Which just means they failed to make a job that has any good party utility, again, but that still doesn't mean it has any "rights" to being overpowered when it comes to dps. If it's a dps class like other dps classes, then it has no more rights to anything than any other dps class. Period.

It's a design choice. You can like it or hate it, but there's nothing wrong with a job that only brings dps as long as the dps is high enough to justify the lack of synergy with the rest of the party.

[Draven]

nothing wrong with a job that only brings dps as long as the dps is high enough

Did I say it shouldn't? No. Read again. If it's a dps class, then it has no more rights to anything than any other dps class. Otherwise, it's unfair to other similarly designed dps classes that have just as much "right" to be the chosen dps for pure dps reasons. Why is this so hard? Is this the shortbus section of the forums or something?

[Janhyua]

Which and what kind of KFchocobo wing they don't understand.....


When you nerf sam dps there is noting left of Sam... when you have ninja and monk both have damage increase for the party while doing almost the same as samurai then what is the point of samurai!?!?!?!?!

Please for the love of chocobo and his friend please understand this logic

[Ryaz]

Is this the shortbus section of the forums or something?

You're here, so I'd say yes.

No ones saying that Sam should have overall more contribution than other classes, but that they need more personal dps to make up for the lack of synergy. You take away Sam's strong dps, you're left with a class that brings nothing that others can't bring plus more. No one believes Samurai have more right to be chosen than other jobs.

I agree that it's a bad design decision to have one selfish dps and several dps with synergy abilities because it's extrenely hard to balance (at least without people freaking out about numbers). Frankly, I think buffs, debuffs and the like should be left to the healers and tanks so that they can contribute a bit more damage to the raid themselves (and they can be balanced better instead of AST being a clear choice) and then just focus on the dps classes doing dps.

[Karja]

Slashing debuff is not utility you can attribute to a Samurai for the simple reason that it's required for a NIN to maximize their own damage. So to say SAM has raid utility when it's paired with something else that has said utility is worth nothing more than a laugh.

After all, unlike Samurai, NIN is in fact mandatory and has a slashing debuff with much higher effective uptime, making Samurai redundant at best and worthless at worst.

Doesn't change the fact that you claimed that SAM is the only job without raid wide utility which is wrong since BLM has no raid utility.

[Draven]

snip

At what point have I said I don't agree they should have good dps? Not once did I say nerf them here. I said...you know what, fk it. This is ridiculous.

"You're here, so I'd say yes." right back at you.