Dragoons... how do you feel post 4.0?

[HoLoFoNo]

DRG AoE and LotD are mutually exclusive. Which is also a problem, but let's try to nip this perception in the bud, please. The role of BotD in an AoE session is to enable Geirskogul and buff jumps, not to make it take so long you can actually use Nastrond.

(Alas, I'm about to get on the road, math will have to wait.)

The only time aoe is currently applicable is in dungeons. With that being the case all I meant is that if you have LotD up already, you can do your aoe rotation and get nastronds off. As it is, due to GSK having a longer cd than BotD and jump having an equivalent, you don't even have to keep it up. You can just pop BotD everytime you are gonna use the jumps or GSK.

The nature of the aoe is important too when it comes to actual fights. Something like A2S is actually pretty good for current DRG.

I don't even know the point I'm trying to make anymore, just putting this out there.

[Riotpersona]

Even if it is only applicable in dungeons, for a lot of the more casual audience in the game that is the meat and still something that needs to be done a least a little bit by everyone, and frankly playing DRG in dungeons right now is one of the most unenjoyable experiences in this game.

[Crushing_Wake]

words 'n numbers 'n shit

To make sure; you did not count the Monk as a direct beneficiary of Brotherhood, correct? Monks don't benefit from their own Brotherhood's damage buff. Only asking because I saw the (5/8)

[SunnyHirose]

The only time aoe is currently applicable is in dungeons. With that being the case all I meant is that if you have LotD up already, you can do your aoe rotation and get nastronds off. As it is, due to GSK having a longer cd than BotD and jump having an equivalent, you don't even have to keep it up. You can just pop BotD everytime you are gonna use the jumps or GSK.

I get that, I'm a bit overeager on this topic because I often see Nastrond come up in implied AoE contexts here and on Reddit when it's just not supposed to be a likely situation ever. My first level 70 dungeon (everyone there was in leveling gear and it's already item level synced off the bat), I ended up getting to four eyes only on the last boss even though the tank went all Sanic on us.

But to show a bit of my thinking:

DRG's spammy bits (1.15x multiplier from HT) are 172.5/target from weaponskills (~69pps x 12/13 to reflect HT = ~63.7), 253/35s per target from geirskogul (7.23pps), and 345/120s from Dragonfire (2.875pps) for about 73.42 pps on non-primary targets.

MNK (1.43x multiplier for Twin Snakes + GL3) has 185.9 every third weaponskill plus 3 bonus from Perfect Balance (87.5pps x ~31/85 GCDs = ~31.9pps), 300.3/60s from Howling Fist (5.005pps), 314.6/30s from Elixir Field (10.49pps) for about 47.4 pps on non-primary targets.

Potencies aren't completely comparable and burst in trash pulls counts for wayyyy more than these ballpark estimates, but MNK clearly needs to work its single-target and burst to not get entirely outclassed. DRG needs to more... not get tired of 121212121212. (I don't have good AoE estimates on NIN/SAM because I haven't leveled them yet, I just know MNK because its AoE hasn't changed significantly.)

[Maxwell]

Goon is absolutely FUBAR right now. Lowest dps, complicated and punishing mechanics, hair ripping suceptibility to mechanics in ANY scenario. Unbelivable regression.... hell PVP goon feels better than this PVE cancer. I refuse to believe the dev and people tesing goon before release enjoyed it.

Can SE swap PVP and PVE goon plz ?

[AsunaStrife]

How about some buffs to drg @SE?
I mean, I main ninja atm and i feel like ninja should be the lowest melee dps, yet drg is way behind LOL... but for what reason? How is SE even justifying drg being so far behind? You guys playtested the class?
Balance the game out. Buff drg and nerf Sam slightly (kaiten down to ~30%).

[HoLoFoNo]

Maths

Oh no I completely agree, the fact that nastrond and GSK are AoE hurts the abilities more than benefits (as I am like 90% sure this is how the devs justify their mediocre potencies).

To be completely honest, and this isn't a popular opinion but I enjoy the eye system despite the fact that there are glaring flaws that I wont deny exists purely because it actually rewards critical thinking. What I don't like is that DRG is so weak. Call me an elitist but if DRG remained completely the same but had comparable ceilings to the other melee dps then I would be 100% ok with that. I don't speak for everyone but I like playing DRG and most likely if not for parsers I wouldn't have an issue. That being said Nastrond needs a significant buff. Just make it like Guren and drop off damage for extra targets while making the main target take max damage.

I had an idea to make it more of a fun ability but it probably wouldn't be good in execution: Nastrond does 320 Potency + the duration left on LotD x10 on the first target and etc. This would make a max duration nastrond 620 potency and if it is done asap, it would be 520 and 420 (optimal conditions, not accounting for any server delay shit) but that would just be a gimmicky way of making it around 500 potency. This is around a 50% increase in damage which is huge, probably overpowered as nastrond is currently roughly 4% damage in a fight with near maximum usage (Susano, you only really lose one but on Lak you lose BotD completely along with any eyes) and that equated to about 90k damage based on that run (should probably average them out but this is from a 98 percentile run) so with this buff it would add about 50k damage accounting for the increase in Dhit and Chit damage and added multipliers from all the other shiz).

This is sneezed on tissue paper math so I anyone wants to go in more detail feel free. That being said I do feel that nastrond isn't the only thing that is weak so if they do buff its damage they want to make it well rounded.

[Haaki]

This would be my proposed changes:
- Disembowel back to 10%
- Keep the eyes if BOTD falls (polyglot stack from BLM, anyone?)
- Dragon fire dive gives dive ready
- Dragon Sight same cooldown as B4B
- Battle Litany 120s from 180s. Really, every other major buff is on a much lower cool down than this. There's no justification.

[HoLoFoNo]

Yeah that is simple and doesn't fuck with the class too much. I personally think that as our shiny level 70 ability Nastrond should be much stronger as it contributes less than mirage dive which is just a resource for our eyes and dragon sight should be 15% and 10% to make it like the old BfB coupled with the same timer or if they absolutely insist on making DRG the support melee (which I hope the reconsider) just make it 10% and 15% so it buffs the other person more than the DRG.

[Erys]

To be completely honest, and this isn't a popular opinion but I enjoy the eye system despite the fact that there are glaring flaws that I wont deny exists purely because it actually rewards critical thinking. What I don't like is that DRG is so weak. Call me an elitist but if DRG remained completely the same but had comparable ceilings to the other melee dps then I would be 100% ok with that.
I had an idea to make it more of a fun ability but it probably wouldn't be good in execution: cool damage based on duration idea

I 100% agree with you and your idea is stupid good. I'd like to play that. Also wouldn't hurt to have F&C and WT buffed since they make up 19% of our damage, on par with our autoattack. And they are pretty much our only weapon skills not buffed to account for disembowel and bfb nerf.